About that federal worker buyout thing...
In case you haven't heard:
Funny how similar it sounds to Curtis Yarvin's R.A.G.E. – Retire All Government Employees. A step in "deleting" the government so a dictator can take over.
Curtis Yarvin is an anti-democracy douchebag who wants the U.S. to become a dictatorship, like a corporation with a CEO.
Apparently, Yarvin is popular among tech billionaires (Trump's new boot lickers), including Peter Thiel, who basically financed JD Vance's entire career.
Rachel Maddow discussed this whole thing about Yarvin, Thiel, and Vance on Tuesday night, but I can't find a video of that segment.
I did, however, find a segment from a few months ago discussing much of the same thing...
***
***
For more, here's an article from last summer:
JD Vance’s radical plan to build a government of Trump loyalists
***
Let's recap...
- Vance is a Silicon Valley tech billionaire's pet project
- Trump has recently surrounded himself with tech billionaires
- Vance thinks we are a late-stage republic (like Rome right before it became a permanent dictatorship)
- Vance has referred to Yarvin as someone with ideas he finds interesting
- Yarvin wants to get rid of our republic and replace it with a dictatorship
- Trump would obviously love to be a dictator (for life even)
- Yarvin has suggested a way to begin – R.A.G.E. (retire all government employees)
- Trump initiates a federal worker resignation program
What the actual F**K?
Tags
Who is online
92 visitors
And we're only in Trump's second week.
You know damn well he never wants to leave power again.
The ones who are sucking up to him are absolutely disgusting, and if they're going to take big personal hits because of DeepSeek, they damn well deserve it. Of course, Zuckerberg didn't need to dance with Trump for him to be a bastard, he already accomplished that in college.
There was a movie about Nixon in which he questioned whether it was possible to get a third term. It sure as hell wouldn't surprise me if Trump were to take a shot at it.
A Republican House member actually submitted a proposal for a third Trump term last week.
Why does that NOT surprise me?
he's got to survive the next 1442 days first ...
With the plethora of people who Trump is currently ruining their livelihoods and lives, one would think that there would be a long line of folk planning his immediate demise.
Seriously pissing off thousands of gun toting FBI agents would not seem to be conducive to one's continued health.
I'm waiting for him to piss off the military so I can pick up a few stingers, RPG's, and man-pads real cheap ... /s
IMO, there is no doubt that Trump wants and 3rd and 4th term and is setting things up to accomplish that goal. Sadly, we have millions of Americans that think it’s a great idea and willing follow the Pied Piper of Diaster down the primrose path to destruction.
The ‘’Tech bros’’ have taken their place as the palace guard. Perhaps we are seeing the end of era as American sinks into the slime of Trumpism.
I know what that slime will consist of and plan on being a major contributor ...
Good article. I have read a couple long articles about Yarvin and the tech magnates acceptance of his ideas. Yarvin promotes the idea of an unelected "CEO" running the country, sort of like a businessman -king. The purpose would be to avoid the messy complications of checks and balances, need for bipartisan collaboration , and well, elections.
The tech magnates may be drooling at the thought. Which one of them would win the fight? The Trump administration may serve the function of greasing the skids for this.
Of course this could never happen. The richest people in the world couldnt get their way, could they?
Couldn't? Heck, they already have.
(Its just that most of them are smart enought to keep quiet about it...)
Oligarchy 101.
Right out of the Project 2025 handbook - remove as many federal workers as possible and hire new ones faithful to the Emperor.
Bill Clinton did the same thing,
why do progressives hate saving taxpayer money?
They don't want the competition for the welfare dollars.
I guess it depends on where one is 'standing' and oriented to matter, eh George? By the way, one distinction should be considered if Trump 'loyalists' take the positions held by neutral federal workings: Lack of job security of any kind. That is, they will not be offered the same or similar provisions to keep their jobs.
Hell of a way to run a perpetual system. . . installing new models of government every several years.
Why do all these tech bros, and your vice president, love a guy who is literally calling for America to be run as an authoritarian country?
Whatabout is like an unconscious reflex with you.
[✘]
[✘]
Because most taxpayer money is spent with the primary purpose of making people feel better with very little regard to what it actually achieves.
Pretty sure Trump is already trying to figure out how to get all this money that he is "saving" into his own pockets.
Another ignorant comment, with the exception of carter trump is the only president not to get richer after being president.
Donald Trump's Net Worth Fell by a Third During His Presidency, Forbes Says - Newsweek
The only reason Trump looked poorer than when he went into 2016 is because he was drastically overinflating his own worth which he's been doing for years. After becoming President, it became more difficult to just pull numbers out of his ass and present them as facts.
Back at you...
Trump’s Business Hauled In $2.4 Billion During Four Years He Served As President
Trump made up to $160 million from foreign countries as president
New Congressional Report: Trump Businesses Received $7.8 Million from Foreign Governments During His Presidency
Donald J. Trump's businesses received at least $7.8 million from 20 foreign governments during his presidency
Trump business got at least $7.8 million in foreign payments during presidency -report
Trump has reported earning an estimated $2.3 billion since announcing presidential run
Or in simple language:
Trump: I have lost so much money while being President. I sacrificed so much while being the best President in history. Now I need your help if you want me to run again.
MAGA: Please tell us how to give you all our money./
[✘]
And I gave you 6 respectable websites.
You are posting on a seed whose primary point is that offering federal employees an early retirement package constitutes the end of democracy.
[deleted] You [✘] may struggle to find people who understand the difference millions and billions, much less the difference between personal net worth and ordinary business income. Use of the term EBITDA may be considered racist.
Just reminding you to manage expectations.
[✘]
What exactly should money do for the living besides make them feel good (asking for a friend)? As 'it' clearly won't help anybody feel anything once they are dead. Oh, and yeah, feeling good is a thing to be achieved. (Chuckles.)
Jack_Tx, there is a saying: All money is not GOOD money. Breaking a properly working civil service system and installing placeholders, boobs, rocks, and ninnies - all wearing the stamp: "loyalists' is not the proper way to run a civil servant which is dedicated to "we the people" —nor merely; 'us the conservatives.' BTW, these so-called new employees would come with no contracts that reflect permanence of any kind they could be and would be removed on a whim. Or, at the "pleasure of the President."
Removed (fired) in several years or less - four years at best. It would not take long to stress out the federal civil service system (and the public too) with staffing turnovers if one thinks deeply about this.
If we're spending government money to solve a problem, it should actually help solve the problem.
If you find one of those, do let us all know.
I don't think you understand how early retirement incentives work. The idea is specifically to not replace them.
Again, you don't make the organization smaller if you replace the people you buy out.
You're leaving out quite a bit there.
Of course, we are agreed on that. It's a given.
There will be replacements. . . because the civil service system is not a 'charity system.' That bloat MAGA is imagining. . .is the needs of 350 plus million people being met (more or less) across 50 states! Don't let cynicism cause one to forget that. Because when lack and lagging to get results returns to the system. . . buckle up, buttercups (the saying goes.)
Now then when the replacements start. . . . There will be a tangible problem: Trump is swearing and vetting people to himself, his whims, and MAGA interests. That can not stand in the civil service system.
Here's why.
1. It is impractical to change out the federal civil service system every time a new president takes office. It is impractical to the staffing and even worse for the millions of recipients being served.
2. Civil servants have to be neutral parties (from all 'walks' of life) not administrative flunkies, lackies, or loyalists to the 'top' federal official. That is, politics (its likes and dislikes) can not be the Determinator of whom will be served or not served, treated or not treated, paid or not paid, in a system where EVERYBODY is participants.
(Surely MAGAs do not wish for a democrat president to come in an treat them the government the way that they are treating it now. Therefore, it is in the interest of THE COUNTRY to leave the civil service out of party politics and national 'quarreling.')
Best to STOP this now, before we (all) unmake our national 'bed.' Even now as we are tearing our systems down (imagining them being 'saved,' our enemies are seeing opportunity to complete making their 'beds' and making off with our status and position in the world.
NOTE: All that being said I realize that our nation has its economic problems and that RESULTS are needed. Messing around with the people serving to fix those problems is not the solution. Ironically, it is congress' (all parties there) duty and responsibility to write policy and law that can resolve the 'ails' of this nation's financial circumstances.
Well let's use your own words, shall we?
Then you have that series of bullet points where you lay out that Trump and Vance want to establish a permanent dictatorship.
So if that's not your primary point, please clarify.
Because as a primary point, it's insane. Do you hear yourself?
It makes a diatribe from Marjorie Taylor Greene look brilliant in comparison. It's primary value is to prove that there is no limit to the level of batshit nonsense liberals will believe when it comes to Donald Trump. At this point, I will not be surprised if we soon have a Rachel Maddow video accusing Trump of attempting to bring back Baal worship so he can sacrifice all the babies and eat them.
Where 3 said the same thing, an international business made money internationally, it's almost like you are trying to post stupid comments, FORBES who tracks the wealth of Billionaires says trump lost wealth as president, unlike democrat pieces of shit who only care about turning a profit. with the exception of President Carter of course.
I don't think that's the plan. That's not how buyouts work.
I think their view would be that it is, in fact, a charity system for the benefit of the employees who don't work very hard.
We'll agree to see this differently.
I think this would be immensely difficult to accomplish over a large number hires. It's one thing to appoint leadership who are loyal to him, and indeed that's the expectation of any president. But there are over 3 million civil servants. Even a tiny fraction.... say 30,000 people... would represent a group far too large to accommodate ideological enforcement in any meaningful sense.
If you'd have looked, you'd have seen that I also posted a FORBES article showing how Trump made millions and billions as POTUS.
Spoken like a skeptic making assumptions about how hard a government 'servant' works, functions, conducts the affairs of state. I can imagine it gets real hard to work trying to keep up with congressional laws that intertwine, laws which often written across multiple political worldviews or 'competing' political conscience states of interests. Properly so, the art of compromise likely means somebody at all time is relatively unhappy (but should not be . . .. ) with the output of those workers who work in a secure job; and, do it because the jobs must (have necessity) to be done!
We should all work hard to understand and commiserate with the job of governing a DIVERSE, and independent minded people! (Tried 'herding cats' any time in life? Just imagine it as a daily 'duty' one can not get out of doing.)
Can you tell US All Trumps limit ?
Can you honestly not say, that fckd up piece of shit has not exceeded EVERYONES expectations of where he would, and most certainly should, be at this point in time, cause the spree of crime wave waving whilst not wavering at US, from of all places, an oval office, whenn he should rightfully be in prison, is example ample, that the Orange clown, enabled by the disgusting GOP is out of their control, and the severe damage, and oh there will be to this democracy, falls on those too busy to hear and see the truth they deny, that the lies they did buy, and or felt indifferent too, cause they said to themselves , whats the worst he can do, are slowly coming to terms with what they have done trying to make liberals become un-done, asz the asses who voted in mass to elect this pathetic pos potUS is the limit pushin fcxd up in the head old fool surrounded by cultivated in his kult following the immature a dolt and enabling a no saveing face while disabling so much, without rhyme or reason , just to show everything is in hunted season, is the main reason the Republicans nand this too lazy to think, and or care,. should reflect about that which actions, or inactions brought US A ll here. The fact that our forefathers' could never see their great vision being entrusted to a populace without the thoughts and vision to see, what electing a criminal that has outdone anyother when it comes to be given a pass has been this ass, is, has, and plans to do in our immediately darkened future is exclamation pointed out by your , see how they are so upset about nothing reqally, and too touchy feely are the Dems and the libs, cause neither You, or any other on this forum that I can recall, predicted that this Dick tater tot boy toy foir Elon his mandate, would or could ever recessitate from the depths of where he placed himself. It seems wealth and playing to the worst emotions via oceans of LIES and telling insecure people that wantred and needed those lies to justify their ongoing demise, and to give them a place to put the blame that should be squarely on their shoulder's, on anyone but they. And if you truly can't see this, okay, but don't try and blow smoke up Elons ass, Trump will choke, like the chicken shit he is, this country has become pathetically great again, just can't wait for all this winning to end, cause don't you think, don't you, no really, don't you think ?
The man is vetting people with his ideology. Each of his replacements (when the time draws near) will be given a script to read and 'uphold' as he is doing right now through using scripts to determine whomsoever he purges! It's undeniable. That Trump will have his 'lieutenants' - take the time - to upbraid with consequences any 'head' of a department who is not strictly abiding his demands of complete and utter following of the 'Captain' of the ship of state! As as we all are aware a free and independent people can not abide STRICT GOVERNANCE from an iron fist! The heavy 'hand' of the state will demolish as much good as it does bad! It's the nature of 'dominators' to injure, damage, and/or destroy what they can not control.
Indeed his new AG is 'attacking' federal employees and even state officials will be investigated (on the whims) for Trump's sake and his refusal to accept that regular citizens indicted him, rank and file juries indicted him, and judges sentenced him based on facts in a court setting. Not his whims about what he values as morally right and in his best interests!
he values only whims with a p, as in himself and powere with wealth, asz hes not exactly stealthy nor mentally healthy, and his cult de as directly follow, the stump so fckn hollow, it grinds to a halt to keep abreast of the the halter top of our lowered country, tis of he
The one thread which runs throughout the life (as we know it) of Donald Trump, the man and the myth, is he is a DOMINATOR. It strikes me that all his life he has strived to be LISTENED TO AND OBEYED in private and professional life. Now he sits at the top of a political party heading the world's most powerful nation. . . in time, he will arrive at a point where his supporters will have quenched their appetites for REFORMATION of government systems. . . but what if President Trump has not met his goals. . . the DOMINATOR will press on with reformation. His surrogates and supporters will then realize they have unleashed a 'beast' not willing to be controlled (by them) and by then will have accomplished EVERYTHING it must do to 'hold' its own LEASH IN HIS OWN POWER!
i don't believe even his cult will allow this, as some are more convinced than others about his all powerful powers
I think the US Constitution does a wonderful job of that.
His ideology was elected. Biden vetted people with his ideology when he was elected. Every president does.
They do not, however, hire mid level civil servants.
You are simultaneously claiming that a) this is possible AND b) Trump will be the first president to be able to do it. This is just nonsense, CB. You give him far too much credit.
Just for a moment, stop thinking about this from the perspective of the person who has something to fear. Instead, think of this from the perspective of the person who pays these people.
If you pay a plumber to come to your home, you expect to be able to enforce accountability in that relationship. You expect him to fix the problem you've identified in a timely fashion. If he starts doing something else, you would expect to hold him accountable for what you have hired him for.
To the extent you pay taxes, these people work for you, and you have every right to expect them to be held to standards.
Finally, think about how you would feel if President Biden or President Obama were initiating this action. I suspect your objections would be exceedingly minimal.
I said you left a lot out, and you did.
Right, because a series of publicly available factual observations concluded with a question of WTF is looney tunes compared to completely imaginary things like Jewish space lasers.
Woven together into an utterly batshit conspiracy theory....
You left that part out.
Whereas your "end of democracy" insanity isn't also completely imaginary. Not at all...... No no... that's totally real and not completely made up in any way.....*eyeroll*
Roll your eyes all you want.
Trump is a tyrant who already tried to subvert the Republic once, and is presently engaged in cementing his above-the-law status by punishing people who dared to investigate or prosecute him and his brown shirts who attacked the Capitol.
If you think it's crazy for anyone to have noticed that Trump is an egomaniacal authoritarian who wants dictatorial powers, then that's a failure on your part, not mine.
Then when/if any of them stand up to him inside the 'house' we will see and know!
Surely we can agree that one can have a morality right and wrong (see "seedy people/underworld) that is not good for society, right? Using the aforementioned as comparison: ideologies - one can be positive and good for the country and another can be negative and bad for this country. Whataboutisms can not work in in every scenario/set of circumstances.
Actually, watching Trump 'work' and now he has brought in the 'cadre' . . . Jack_Tx, perhaps 'somebody' does not give Trump enough credit! The time is NOW to take this man seriously. Before 'somebody' we know is injured, fired, career-ruined, down the line somewhere and it impacts 'us' personally and professionally.
And that is where presumption is ending up WRONG. Given the SAME SET OF CONCERNS, see 5.4.32 above, it would easily be determined that a MORAL WRONG would be occurring not a moral good and OBJECTION would be immediate. There is no justification for trying to DEMONIZE (labeling people morally wrong) decent workers—taking professional people out of their jobs and careers . . . with some 'aspiration' that a few 'crumbs' of paychecks to 'get them by' will do. . .while they look for imagined work that may never come or be sufficient to what they have now. Also, there is an IMPORTANT ANGLE missing here by Trump (and 'company'): federal workers work for the cover and especially continue to do so because they have an UNCTION to serve their country even when the pay won't make them rich.
Of course, 'nobody' should begrudge civil servants doing the work private sector workers would not want to do to do - because it is 'small' and civic-minded and won't make one wealthy. . .just because its continual.
BTW, let's have a discussion about what type of work civil servants perform on behalf of this nation. One may recall that Tesla got it 'power' from the grants provide by these very men and women its CEO is threatening to fire and cast out into a 'wilderness' to wander financially and with only a questionable agreement to may them in the future.
Many don't want people to find out what taxpayers have been spending money on, they might be voted out
Perhaps that comment fails to realize there are issues and matters worth spending money on that are not part of the conservative (or libertarian-conservative) agendas. Of course, not all (or any) of the liberal agenda is morally right to conservatives, and that is OKAY, because not all (but some) of the conservative agenda is morally right to liberals. We live together, nevertheless. Of course there will be funds found to be better managed, it is the nature of trillions of dollars to be constantly fought over and 'gained.' That is something of a given.
If that is true the liberals that are OK with the questionable spending should make their case to the American people as to why they think their tax payer dollars should be spent on it instead of fighting the bringing it out to ight.
That comment misses (moreso "dismisses") the point that the case has been made for helping "we the people" already as when the policies are put in place. That perpetual 'cynics' can not accept any rationale other than their own. . . is a matter of its own.
They don't see it as questionable spending.
They see it as money spent to support the collective morality of a nation.
To a certain extent, they're not wrong. For example, Americans generally are not a people who believe it's acceptable to sit by and let children go hungry or without shelter. Generally, we believe all Americans should have the same basic opportunities. We believe our nation must be sovereign and the rights we enjoy must be protected. So we spend money on things like schools and food stamps and housing and stealth fighter jets.
All of that is to put our money where our mouth is with regard to what we value collectively.
Now.... to certain extent, they're also full of shit I don't doubt for a moment you can name a dozen things on which we spend big money that do not reflect our collective values at all. The major problem here is when we have people who believe something the rest of us don't, and then assume the attitude "well if you were a better person you would agree with me, so we need to spend the money anyway".
Which is exactly what you can do after decades of minimum oversight. Of course if the party in power agrees with that they will be fine with the expenditures. Which again begs the question if you are OK with the expenditures it might make more sense to defend that instead of all the time and energy complaining about the reason it was exposed.
Actually, I agreed with this. It is 'impossible' to put the money back in the bank (so to speak); as to who did what-when that got us into this 'mess' we are ALL in as a community. But, I do recognize an open-ness to discuss the issue without farther retreating into a talking point (no slight intended—really).
We are a nation with two POWERFUL worldviews: liberal-progressive and conservative-libertarian trying to best each other in political warfare. The case now being: the ends justify the means.
The problem for us COMBINED is this: As far as we know, neither side is going away completely politically. . . and neither can we go on careening, caving, stumbling around, and falling politically through our future generations. . . expecting the world to not see us doing so and getting its collective interactions 'together' to boost the U.S. out of its vantage point (sitting at the top of nations). We are/was(?) the envy of the world. As the nation of where immigrants could go, strive, and help lift their own brethren/kin back "home" to have some dignity in their dire political straits, respectively.
Now we are mired in tugs of war, attempting to remember and relive our 'glorious' past. But, as anybody who knows could explain. . . we can't return to our 'womb' or to our 'youth' as a nation. The future does not allow it. What we have learned, or should have learned has gotten us to the here and now. . . and we must go forward. . . come hell or high water. The past must remain in the past! It is the law of things.
What to do?
We have three (or is it two and half) federal systems that are supposed to guide and balance the ship of state. What our leaders (all of them) have done is lay down on their duties and responsibilities and not done the HARDEST WORK OF ALL to reduce our national debt; listen to EACH OTHER's PERSPECTIVES; garner COMPROMISE from the ideas that are workable, interchangeable, and connectable to bring us (all of us) to a straight path—inclusive of the whole.
It is time to do just that. Or we will politically 'die' as a world leader and become one of the mediocre nations of the world. Leaving its children to see its 'glorious days' in the pages of history writers and fantasy novels..
OK.... Yeah....
But you know as well as I do that's not how these folks operate. They won't admit it, but they absolutely know that 98% of Americans have negative amounts of interest in spending $30million for some bullshit like gender studies in Pakistan. But if we stop spending that money, they have to feel bad about it, and they don't want to feel bad.
We'll see.
Is right wing media on a "progressive" kick now? All of a sudden I'm seeing that word used a lot here instead of the standard catch-all "leftist," and every bit as loosely.
Remind me again when Bill Clinton wanted to disband USAID, OSHA and NOAA?
Trump's buyout of Fed employees isn't that different from Clinton's buyout. Clinton really did reduce the size of he Federal civilian workforce by 250,000 employees using buyouts and RIFs. Clinton really did replace civil servants with private contractors.
Clinton's Reinventing Government initiative was how he avoided obstacles to establishing his version of a rule based global order. The tech oligarchs weren't as powerful back then so few really paid attention. Clinton set the precedent for what Elon Musk (through Trump) wants to do.
Trump 2.0 is looking more like the Clinton administration. Clinton's goal was to build a global order on the backs of US taxpayers. Trump's goal is to tear down what Clinton created. The methods employed by both are very similar.
The Impressive Number of Federal Workers Who Have Taken Trump's Buyout Option .
Something you should consider (I am just including a quote and a link so that you see this from a third party and realize that there are many more references you can Google since this is a very common phenomenon in the private sector):
No.
But it may be the best of the available options.
I doubt that. A voluntary buyout leaves all decisions in the hands of the employees.
If the objective is to simply reduce headcount with no regard whatsoever to quality of the remaining staff, retained expertise of the remaining staff, ensuring all important departments are adequately staffed, etc. then this is a fine way to accomplish it.
I doubt that you would consider anything like this if you were in charge. Rather, I strongly suspect you would seek to identify jobs that are obsolete or overstaffed and seek to encourage the most talented employees to stay (including reassignments) while encouraging the deadbeats to leave.
If there is no alternative (for whatever reason) but to leave this all in the hands of the employees then I would not engage in this initiative. And if this truly is all they can do, then DOGE might as well shut down. Hatchet jobs designed to get quick results regardless of quality and side-effects is a horrible way to operate given the methods, expertise, and technology available today to properly reengineer and reimplement processes (and redeploy staff).
It would not be my preferred option. That does not mean it would not be the best available.
We don't know the nature of the employee contracts or the extent of union involvement.
There is also the absolute certainty with involuntary terminations that Trump opponents will scream that they're all politically motivated and that he's "taking revenge" on somebody for something. We're already on a seed where the premise is that voluntary buyouts represent the end of democracy. The insanity of that idea is staggering, but people have jumped on the bandwagon nonetheless. Offering a buyout is more palatable politically.
Yes, but the results are not controlled. Wisdom tells us that uncontrolled circumstances yield suboptimal (if not terrible) results. Not a smart move by any measure.
That is why I would push for a sensible approach that (albeit very hard work and no quick and dirty results) allows an understanding of jobs that are wasteful / redundant / obsolete and mark them to be removed. Then identify valuable employees who would be displaced by eliminated positions and encourage them to stay with a raise and a new position. The other displaced employees would not be encouraged to stay. Many ways to handle that and likely there are one or two methods that would work even in government.
But this is all predicated on doing the hard work of understanding the processes of government in the areas of focus. Not quick and dirty, not something that Trump or Musk would likely be interested in. They no doubt want quick actions that can be spun as great accomplishments.
Yet another Trump initiative that seems doomed to fail (but will be spun and the spin will be believed).
There is a saying... don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
And yet nobody has ever seemed to accomplish it. Hmmmmm.
It also assumes these government employees who know they're possibly going to be eliminated will efficiently help educate outsiders on their legendarily inefficient processes. Trump & Co. only have 4 years. What you're describing would undoubtedly take longer than that.
Do you believe that 87,000 extra IRS agents thing, Greg?
I am pretty sure I made it clear why I believe that this is not even 'good'. I did not state nor imply that perfection is the goal.
Largely because Congress is more concerned with passing legislation that gains political points and increases partisan power rather than initiating and funding the hard work of cleaning up the layers of historical waste in operations. The lack of a profit motive is key here.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, Jack.
That is fundamental to my point. They are concerned about scoring points rather than getting good results. As I noted, the results will be bad but they will spin them as good and many will believe them. That is all that matters to Trump. ("They no doubt want quick actions that can be spun as great accomplishments.")
Well I think we'll agree to see that differently, then.
"Profit" in the traditional business sense, I agree. But if you'll allow a looser use of the word, politicians deal in the currency of political favor, and define "profit" or "loss" in that currency. So yeah, you're exactly right about political points. There are lots of votes to be gained by appearing to "do something", which is most easily done by spending big dollars and creating more government.
Undoubtedly the political "profit" motive is at work here. Trump & Co will gain points from reducing the size of government and appearing to make it more efficient. I think we all know that we can make the government smaller, but we'll never make it more efficient.
That said, I'm generally in favor of reducing the size. If we're going to have a terribly inefficient bureaucracy, there seems little reason to overpay for it.
You think that these buyouts are 'good'? I thought you were arguing that they may not have much choice; not that you personally thought this was a sensible initiative. I noted that it would be better to NOT to do anything than to encourage a talent drain (which will be the result).
You are making the same point I have made and just reiterated: "They are concerned about scoring points rather than getting good results. As I noted, the results will be bad but they will spin them as good and many will believe them. That is all that matters to Trump. "
I am too — very much so! But I am not in favor of reducing the size in a manner that loses more talent and retains more deadbeats. Mere buyouts are not 'good'.
Further, I am not in favor of reducing the size by cutting good functions. To avoid that one needs to understand the processes and not simply look at macro factors from the perspective of an organization chart or financial report.
I think they are probably the best available option.
Interesting use of the word "talent", but OK. Yeah, I understood you. Again, we see it differently. I think reducing the size and expense is worth the risk of losing "talent".
Yeah. We agree.
I think this is where we see it differently. I'm willing to take the risk of losing "talent".
It's the federal government. Talented, motivated people don't tend to stick around anyway. They're generally not interested in working where seniority is rewarded over quality and actual achievement. We're not going to be able to change that culture, so I think the idea that we can retain talented people is overly optimistic.
I know what you stated before; I asked if you thought this was a 'good' option. Should I assume that you think it is worth doing?
It is a common term — especially in your field. What bothers you about it? Talent refers to skills and knowledge. I used it to emphasize, with brevity, that there are government employees who have skills, knowledge, expertise, (... supply your own terms), etc. that is valuable and would be something we prefer to NOT lose.
Okay, then you must think this is worth doing. Do you then believe that most of the people leaving will be those who are expendable / low-value and that those with the desirable skills, knowledge, ... would tend to stay? That is, do you believe those who are most marketable will tend to stay and those hiding in lower-value jobs and doing the minimum will tend to leave? Generally, it is the opposite that occurs.
Yeah, I think so.
Not at all. I don't dispute your assertions on that front.
But that's not the question I believe is most relevant.
The question I'm asking is, "What level of quality reduction will we see with regard to government services, and will the lives of most Americans be affected in a tangible way that they will actually recognize?"
I don't believe most of us are going to notice a decline in the quality of services we get for the money we spend.
That is a different question.
We were talking about the way to achieve good results given the stated goal (efficiency ... although the goal should be effectiveness), not about the ultimate effect realized by most people.
But if the effect really would not be felt then why do anything at all? I suggested that rather than engage in quick & dirty, sub-optimal hacks that we should not do anything and instead work towards getting authorization to analyze the processes and start working smart.
Obviously this will not occur since both Trump and Musk want quick results that can be spun into great successes (regardless of reality).
I consider it the most important.
Well.... I suppose one could consider the concept of "they still suck but now it costs less" as a type of efficiency improvement.
Reduce the costs.
I have very low confidence that it would happen no matter what. I think you could spend 20 years analyzing the processes and at the end of that time all you would have to show for it is an additional department of 50,000 civil servants dedicated to analyzing other civil servants.
If they can reduce the costs and not reduce the quality then do so. I do not expect quick & dirty hatchet cuts to accomplish that. Indeed, I expect them to introduce more unnecessary chaos and probably end up costing more money to ultimately recover from the mess.
In the federal government, I agree with you. I have been speaking in terms of practical management practices. The idea that Congress would fund something like this where they get no real credit is unlikely. The idea that someone would champion this and fight through all the politics to make the kind of changes that should be made (cross department process reengineering and redeployment) is unlikely.
The best we could do, really, is provide specific direction (doable goals) to GAO, provide them funding, give them appropriate authorization, and have them basically increase the volume on what they have been doing for years. They are the appropriate Program Management Office and likely the best extent center of expertise in the federal government.
And this is what I have suggested. It is not flashy, is hard work, will not produce staggering changes, but it could continue with incremental / evolutionary positive changes to operational systems across federal departments. Much better than literally doing nothing or hacking for show.
That's what I've been saying.
You'll remember me posing the question, "What level of quality reduction will we see with regard to government services, and will the lives of most Americans be affected in a tangible way that they will actually recognize?"
I suspect we won't see a difference.
Exactly, right? Best practices in almost any other organization don't hold in federal government. I think that's the issue in a nutshell.
You make the point that voluntary buy outs are generally a poor way to make an organization more efficient. You lay out why that is in a perfectly logical framework. And you are 100% correct in almost any other organization.
But when the federal government is involved, logic, efficiency, and the basic laws of organizational management all go straight in the trash can. And we're talking about the nation's largest employer, BTW.
So when we talk about "not reduce the quality", the sarcastic question that springs to mind is "CAN you reduce the quality? We weren't aware that was possible."
And of course anyone would sign up for that. Just like anyone would support going to a new cellular supplier if it gives the same service for a lower price.
Do you believe that they literally will be able to reduce costs without affecting quality with coarse hacking of departments? That is quite a magic act. They can eliminate redundant / pointless departments that nobody else depends upon. That would be low-hanging fruit and might be suitable for coarse grain hacks. I have no idea how much of that exists. I expect that much of the waste is commingled with valuable functions. Untangling this mess is the first step of doing the job right. What I have been saying is that Trump / Musk will likely not do that.
Even though I hold little hope that the federal government would support a serious (and thus hard work) initiative, I do believe it is possible to do.
Similarly with buyouts, that practice as stated is so bad that there are plenty of ways to get better results. I totally reject the belief that this is the best the federal government can do.
I think quality is already so low that any reduction will be negligible.
It would be in any other organization. But keep in mind, we've lived through government shutdowns where most of us didn't see any drop in the quality of our lives. Obviously that situation would be untenable on a permanent basis, but it speaks to the low level of work actually being done.
You appear to have a level of optimism regarding the US Govt that I simply cannot bring myself to endorse.
Might be a bit too pessimistic.
The immediate negatives of shutdowns is pain to government workers, not so much a direct impact on the quality of all American lives. An extended shutdown, however, would have an effect. Rarely do we have extended disruptions and thus rarely is the effect directly felt. Thus gauging on the immediate impact on the public is not very realistic.
Let's try this. What if the FAA drops in effectiveness? Or if the US Treasury starts failing to make timely payments? Even relatively minor things like the Federal government falling behind on passports, etc. would be disruptive.
My view is hardly optimistic (hard to imagine how you could pen that after reading what I have been writing), but it might look that way to someone who is substantially more pessimistic.
It appears that we may have a glimpse into what motivates Musk intentions to takeover and control the 'systems' of the federal government.
I suspect that not all of these items are accurately presented. That is, I suspect some (if not many) are described in a wasteful way when a legitimate purpose is actually there. But I do not know.
So, assuming this is accurate, this is a perfect thing for the Federal government to go after. Eliminate wasteful programs. And especially programs that have expired yet funding continues.
Although I find it easy to believe the federal government can easily waste $1 trillion, I have not verified this list so I am not presenting it as fact.
That statement ignores the fact that the public sector is NOT the private sector (for a reason): Governmental agencies are not profit-driven. The government is not in the business of making a profit. Profit is not the priority/mission of our federal government.
That is, if the government paid its employees private wage scales for there services. . . good it does not. Why? Because government service is meant for the good of the whole country, not just an individual and/or stockholders. Additionally, if the government could be profit-driven, guess what? The government would be required to pay its workers competitive wages. (Some say even 'profit-sharing' would be on the table.)
Evenso, the tone of that comment above continues to diminish and be skeptical of civil servants' collective worth. . . while the 'thrust' of your viewpoint is the same government which can not function PROPERLY with its working model today can somehow function better with less!
Make it make sense, Jack.
Already there has been a fatal error committed by 'amateurs' tampering around in federal system 'resources.' CIA agents it has been reported have been partially outed (and it can not be retrieved apparently) in an unclassified email/letter. Your 'typical' civil servant did not do that! The incoming administration 'mangled' the people outed "for all time."
Easy to believe.
Trump plans to bring this country to its collective 'knees' and declare doing so, "the right prescription" for what ails it. Of course, None of those people in his 'inner circle' putting us all through our. . . 'catharsis' will feel any of it themselves under the 'cover' of protection from the government they are turning inside out. It's time to Wake up and see the 'man' that is going to eat all our lunches if we don't get smart and punch back!
I do not think that is his plan. However I think we are in for plenty of pain because Trump is irresponsible, incompetent yet thinks he is always right. Couple that with a complete lack of empathy as is true for any sociopath and we are in for a difficult four years.
That is what I mean, Trump has not changed from his original intent for this country from 'Day One.' The difference is this time around he has 'put in the time' (done the 'homework' needed) to be better EQUIPPED this time for UNDERMINING the systems of this country. It has been his 'smart' thing to do all along; just needed better positioning to conduct his business. Remember it was intentional to go before the supreme court and 'plead' his case for immunity for (ALL) future presidents with the sub-text being he would be 'back' and maybe not departing after a second term (if he can swing the government away from its mooring and reorient the constitution!
By the way, did you see how 'smooth' Trump and MAGAs lied about Russel Vought, the new head of OMB, who literally told the nation he would get that job thereabouts during the campaign. Even as Donald Trump 'swore' he did not know of Project 2025? Is it any wonder that the 'defenders' and surrogates of Trump (here and in the real world are not surprised by this event? No, because they knew it was lie or should have known from the start.
My hypothesis is that Trump seeks to have fun. He seeks to do whatever pleases him. I see him as impulsive and irresponsible. In short, he is a sociopath who see others as tools to exploit.
On top of that, he is not smart and impossibly stubborn. Hard to think of a worse mix of flaws for someone who has the power of the presidency.
Finally, his great skill is to con people. Apparently he is a successful demagogue as he has hijacked the GoP and most of the electorate.
To wit, I do not think Trump has a plan. I do not believe he knows how to plan. He will do some good things, many bad things, and all will be the extemporaneous results of his whims.
Do you people really want a dictatorship? You know what happens under a dictatorship don't you? No more free speech, no more freedom of religion, give up your guns and welcome to search and seizures for any reason at any time with no warrants
I don't know how the country is going to survive with a pathological liar like Trump in office in power. He said today usaid sent 100 million dollars wortth of condoms to Hamas. That's twice the figure that the original lie from Fox News told. Trump just added 50 million to the sum in order to make it sound more serious or better for his position. There's literally nothing this guy won't lie about. I don't know how the country is going to survive 4 years of this.
I don't think militant Muslims believe in birth control or STD prevention
Only reason we survived the last time was Trump's overwhelming ignorance. He has people this time writing up the steps he will take (in multicolored crayons with big pictures).
They do.
They somehow imagine that all the ugliness that always accompanies fascist dictatorships will only fall on "others". Not on them.
That's stupid, of course... but hey!
Exactly
I don't think you really believe that. Congress and SCOTUS won't allow it.
If the Democrats EVER want to regain power and influence, they are going to have to get over this hysteria about Trump and Musk and rebuild their brand. The way things are going right now, they (collectively) don't appear to be capable of doing this.
Are we talking about the Biden Administration or Trump?
They perceive a conservative "utopia"—a world where they would be RESPECTED. Somehow imagining poor whites were RESPECTED by robber barons who 'lorded' over them and watched the rank and file fall into disrepair (and live in tenements stacked on top of each other). Oh, and remember the 'howl' when a president under took to put lights in houses. . . and just remember back then the country was littered with shacks which could not be properly kept.
UPDATE...
National security services were originally exempt from the buyouts, but no more. The CIA is now included.
Well, there goes trmp's daily security briefing...which he never read anyway
I remember they tried using lots of pictures because he wouldn't read.
Maybe they just need a cartoonist. Probably still wouldn't work.
Trump Once Again Suggests He Might Try To Run For Third Term In 2028
Have you ever heard of the Constitution?
That is a question asked to Trump, not Dig.
[✘]
This is a comment that should be flagged. Clearly we all understand term limits. You are intentionally misrepresenting our comments to enable your obnoxious comment.
As I noted, Dig is not the one who needs to be reminded of the CotUS, Trump is.
Then flag it.
"As I noted, Dig is not the one who needs to be reminded of the CotUS, Trump is."
Pretty much not concerned about what you noted, nor do you not need to answer for him.
He is the one that asked the question, not Trump, hence why I asked him the question.
What question did Dig ask? He reported on Trump. He did not ask a question nor did he even hint that he is unaware of term limits on the PotUS (something that a normally educated middle school student knows).
[deleted][✘]
[✘]
has trump? has maga?
Not sure who this "maga" you shrill about, but as you can see, I directly stated what the Constitution says about presidential term limits, so at least conservatives have.
If that were actually the case, Trump would not be President of these "United" states me.
This immunized and despised by any non corrupted & manipulated honest true interpretation of the true backboner of this once great nation, that is currently in a freefalling upon impact devastation direction, due to the purposely by design deviation from the set standards and norms that helped build and carry on in the sustentation that has been now impeded, and this was achieved buy the Quarts activation causing the results from a dire election to be the infection as is known as our current direction.
As i pointed out to Jack, who doesn't apparently know, Trump has exceeded our carefully thought out founders plans to thwart one such as Don, the lying fckn con, and it has been pretty dam effective in its role, but Trump has broken that model(and no, not his illegal wife he first banged on the Loilita express way) for he is a lifelong criminal elected by peepholes obscured by the hundreds of millions that flooded his campaign to manipulate the vision of the facts, facts either blurred or somehow turned 180, by propaganda fkn A shady that to this day have proven that the purchase and flood of alternate fax, along with a 'right' wing flappin unSupreme quartz agenda, paved the way for the mental midget miscreant of mystery, to oil and foil the wheels of justice in a league not yet deformed to this extent B 4, cause this has been done to US and a hell of a lot more to change US for the make great purpose of the enrichmeant and deviation played out by and for the oligarchs of this formerly great nation.
As the nay sayers have proven that Johnny come lately is the porta potty rich and snotty gigantic scarlet letter touted on his sweater giant A hole in what used to be the envy of the world, butt now, the current spinnin of and buy the whirleds' biggest turd, the spinning of actual reality with his own Constitution absurd!
And this has him leaving us with the runs, as his dumb down and drown has been the opening of the immaculate misconception via his laxatives, as he has halted the constipation and released a whirled world of unnecessary shit upon this nation, that should wash their hands over such non-feeble and fecal matters, but now can't, cause the contamination of this nation has done splattered,
Splattered over so much without a flush, there is no bowl to punch, no corn and peanuts to crunch, as poll after danced around pole has shown a plan, where there is not a rescue from a little guy in a little boat, only a little guy with a 2025 plan where the Tidy Bowl Man went on vacation, asz we circle the drain because peoples were too lazy to ascertain, the true pain, that we would be exposed to by a second term for a determined in our termination present potUS plan.
Cause he is everything our forefathers would have never wanted to see, as our dumbed down society has proven,
that is what and where we be in
our country tis of he,
as we are stuck and in a shitty groove, but groovy we not be.
Wake up people and 'Christians' supported buy the bought steeple that has the slant, for a steep hill to traverse in a country that can't,
cause in our current universe, our world is spinning down the twisted sewer made grate again, buy the bought and paid for who enabled the election infection, known as this 'man' ,
with a mandate elon plan to supersede with all of the hate planted to grow,
inn the people that can't seem to know . and or say so.
, WTF this POS has done, as exercised daily are the fruits of his labor bowel and foul movement, has his and is his asz this excrement forced out and about does and will continue to implement without a doubt, his will over a party with out, the guts, who threw their hands up like nuitz, bounced off their chin, cause they have again done let the actually enemy from within, take one and all like an i from the team, as sodomized by the Gonorrhea mess of a messiah brought about to dry up the dream,
N
US All pooped out, without any Charmin to be had, for HE has put us in this shitty situation, and so many refuse to see that as bad,
yep, we've been HAD...
and i had to clean this shit off and from my chest, so i used a Stanley Steamer, unlike Trump and Cump., for they went to
Cleveland....
He continues to talk about it. The only way it happens is if he completes his authoritarian dictatorship before this term ends.
And of course that is not going to happen, but it is going to be sickening watching this scoundrel piss all over the law and the CotUS and get by with it in many cases due to Trump-protecting judges like Aileen Cannon.
The douchebags in Congress are actively working to rewrite the CotUS to advance their authoritarian goals. It's a good thing that's not a simple task.
You mean like those that want to abolish the EC every time they lose a presidential election?
or the last democratic administration who claimed they could amend the constitution by tweet?
The SCotUS literally violated the CotUS in their immunity decision:
Always with the whataboutism. Stupid is stupid no matter which populist wing it comes from.
The argument is that the Senate has to convict before a criminal trial can go forward. Which is insane during these hyper partisan times. Perhaps we do need an amendment stating anytime the House votes for impeachment the Senate MUST present all the evidence and hear from all the witnesses before casting a vote to convict.
Not really.
You specifically stated "the douchbags in Congress" Easily mistaken that you meant Democrats....and far more accurate.
That was the argument made by Trump's attorneys. But the SCotUS went one step further and gave the PotUS 100% immunity in perpetuity for anything that is considered a core-constitutional duty and granted the presumption of immunity elsewhere. In addition, they stated that evidence from presidential duties is not admissible in any trial.
None of that is in the CotUS. But most blatantly is the violation I noted which states clearly that a PotUS is NOT above the law and there is nothing in the CotUS that makes special provisions for core constitutional duties, etc.
Pretty much always.
Only way to mistake what I wrote would be if you are partisan populist that ignores context. So... there's that.
I understand your point. Smith had to resubmit charges outlining which action Trump took that should not be considered core-constitutional duties in both his J6th case and his classified docs case.
As we talked about at the time, I expect a future court to correct this error. I also expect a future court to correct the ruling on implied privacy rights that were struck down in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization.
Me too. Especially given the Trump presidency as a prime case in point that shows we cannot trust the electorate to ensure the PotUS is fit for the office ... not even close. Thus the powers of the presidency need to remain limited and special provisions to put the PotUS above the law is dangerous.
After all, what is more dangerous than the most powerful person on the planet having special legal immunity?
So I didn't make a mistake...
What is worse, is when that special most powerful person, is Donald Trump....
or is it Elon Musk for 'men' with tiny mandates ?
Yes, the Supremes sang US a bogus song as they are an activated sleeper installed by the 'right' 'conservative' B a keepers of the cash and spreaders of the rash, that will not ever wash away, as the history will be written, and it won't be swell, but it will show and tell ( hopefully at least with Elon in the wing east going al AI we cant be sure) that when ignorance brought about and got 45 elected, that a part of US , and what this idea was all about, did die.
You should read that clause again if you think if the Trump decision is inconsistent with it.
Is that supposed to persuade someone? You offer no details, no argument, just a presumption that I have only casually glanced at these details.
I have done considerably more than merely glance at a clause:
The text is clear. Simply reading it should be enough. I don't what else you need me to do.
Read the clause and understand its terms. The Court did not contradict it.
And now you give a second post that has zero content. You offer no argument, no facts, just a claim.