Elon Musk's call for Germany to 'move beyond' Nazi guilt is dangerous, Holocaust memorial chair says
Category: News & Politics
Via: perrie-halpern • 2 weeks ago • 114 commentsBy: Freddie Clayton


By Freddie Clayton
The chairman of Israel's official Holocaust memorial has accused Elon Musk of insulting the victims of Nazism and endangering Germany's democratic future after the billionaire addressed a rally for Germany's far-right party on Saturday.
Musk, the world's richest man, made a surprise virtual appearance at a campaign event for Germany's far-right Alternative fur Deutschland (AfD) party on Saturday, doubling down on his support for the group he has said can "save Germany" ahead of snap elections in February.
In an apparent reference to Germany's Nazi history, the head of the Trump administration's Department of Government Efficiency, whose smiling face was projected onto a vast screen, told a roaring crowd that "children should not be guilty of the sins of their parents, let alone their great-grandparents."
"There is too much focus on past guilt, and we need to move beyond that," he added at the rally in the eastern German city of Halle.
Musk's remarks, which came the same week that he faced criticism for a gesture during a speech in Washington that many people said resembled a Nazi salute, came two days before world leaders are due to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.
"The remembrance and acknowledgement of the dark past of the country and its people should be central in shaping the German society," said Dani Dayan, chairman of Yad Vashem, Israel's memorial to the victims of the Holocaust, in a post on X.
"Failing to do so is an insult to the victims of Nazism and a clear danger to the democratic future of Germany," he added.
Musk has openly supported numerous hard-right causes in Europe, including the anti-immigrant AfD, which last year became the first far-right party to win a state election in Germany since World War II.
Moving past guilt over the atrocities of Germany's Nazi era is a key pillar of the AfD's platform.
In echoing the party's attitude to Germany's past — a point of view that has drawn outrage inside Germany and abroad — the tech billionaire threw his support behind a party whose co-founder Alexander Gauland once dismissed the Nazi era as "just a speck of bird's muck in more than 1,000 years of successful German history."
The AfD denies being extremist, although its leaders have said that Germany should stop apologizing for the Holocaust and the Third Reich.
The timing of Musk's appearance at the AfD rally was also notable in that it came just days after he made a gesture in Washington that sparked widespread condemnation.
Abraham Foxman, the former director of the Anti-Defamation League, said on X that Musk's appearance in and comments at the rally, just days after his speech in Washington, "help place the hand gesture in perspective."
Foxman's comments on Musk's actions came in contrast to those of the ADL's current leadership.
The ADL defended Musk after the gesture, suggesting on X — the social media platform that Musk owns — that the billionaire had made an "awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute."
"In this moment, all sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath," it said.
In his own attempt to downplay the allegations, Musk posted a joke referencing names of prominent Nazi leaders on X, also sparking a backlash.
The ADL's chief executive, Jonathan Greenblatt, responded on the same platform saying that "the Holocaust is not a joke."
Musk's comments at the AfD's rally also played into familiar AfD talking points on national identity and immigration.
"It's good to be proud of German culture, German values, and not to lose that in some sort of multiculturalism that dilutes everything," Musk said.
The AfD has successfully used Germany's debate over immigration to bolster its popularity. The party adopted an explicitly anti-Islam policy in May 2016, and its 2017 election manifesto included a section on why "Islam does not belong to Germany."
The topic of immigration was one of many Musk discussed during an X broadcast earlier this month in which he spent more than an hour speaking with AfD co-leader Alice Weidel.
As he has become increasingly vocal about his apparent move to the right of the political spectrum, Musk has thrown his support behind numerous right-wing causes, including the United Kingdom's hard-right Reform UK party and Italy's far-right Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, calling her a "precious genius."
But his most zealous support has been for the AfD, which heads into February's elections polling in second place after the collapse of Germany's left-led coalition government.
While other German political parties have refused to join coalitions with the AfD due to its extreme positions, Musk has given the group a significant boost, most notably — before Saturday at least — with his X interview with Weidel.
In the conversation, Weidel said that AfD is "exactly the opposite" of Adolf Hitler's party, adding that it's Europe's left-wing political parties who are antisemitic.
"We are wrongly framed the entire time," she said.
Freddie Clayton
Freddie Clayton is a freelance journalist based in London.

Let the world never forget. Also keep in mind that the current antisemitism comes from the left.
That is bullshit propaganda defiling the solemnity of Holocaust rememberance. I had relatives who were murdered by the Nazis. That bullshit propaganda is a disgusting and repulsive insult to their memories.
[ ✘ ] The phrase "Never Forget" also implies that we never let it happen again. Here in the US during Joe Biden's final year in office we had rabid antisemitism on American campuses with leftist administrators refusing to call it what it was. Ultimately, they were forced to resign.

Aren't you able to condemn the antisemitism of TODAY?
Jewish American students hid in their dorms.
You can't look left. You have to make a decision on what is more important to you: ideology or the Jewish people.
What is more important is the truth! Let truth be the North Star in situations like this. Tribalism is bs. Sure, I get it. We owe loyalty to family first. . . but since we are talking about words and rhetoric we have the luxury of telling the truth—especially to OURSELVES. Deluding oneself to think that . . . well, forgive me for being blunt: that our CRAP does not stink. . .would be wrong. Worse, the stench would not be dealt with properly and would languish.
By the way, and this is important, do not CONFLATE two issues for their connection but give respect to their differences! What happened to Israel at the hands of Nazis and Hitler's Germany is not comparable to what is occurring to Jews in their homeland. It is apples and oranges. That is, antisemitism in 1900's Germany is not the same as antisemitism on American campuses or in the Middle East today. If I am wrong, maybe some Jewish person can point it out to be where it is relevant.
Anti-semitism occurs in all segments of society, left and right. However, it has always been and continues to be more prevalent on the right. Everyone knows it. It is a fact.
You have no fucking right to tell me what I have to do about anything, and the decision you claim I have to make is false. Let's not forget that you stated clearly you would support fascism in America. You made your decision.
the afrikaner is laying the groundwork for the new maga 4th reich ...
Actuallt much of what's been said here (re: leftist anti-Semitism vs Rightist anti-Semitism) is partially accurate-- and partially inaccurate
The fact is that extremists on both the left and right are anti-Semitic-- and moderates on both sides are generally more tolerant/
Yes, Right-wing extremists (Nazi Germany) was extremely anti-Semitic--- but so were Left wing extremists (Communist USSR).
Political extremists on both sides need to have a scapegoat, so they pick on minorities.
The far left (USSR under Communism) was extremely anti-Semitic.
False:
The problem is antisemitism from the left - JNS.org
Let's not forget that you stated clearly you would support fascism in America.
Would that be the time you said Marxism was better than Fascism?
I NEVER SAID MARXISM WAS BETTER THAN FASCISM. THAT IS A FUCKING LIE.
what else is new ?
It's the same old shit.
I have never said I supported Marxism, I approved of Marxism, or that Marxism was better than Fascism. Any claim that I did is a lie.
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Not at all False, but then your "proof" is an opinion piece from a conservative source which quotes The Heritage Foundation. Could they be more biased?
Try a legitimate internet search and see what the results are.
Conservatives are more likely than liberals to hold anti-Semitic views, survey finds - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
Conservatives more likely to hold antisemitic views
Study shows far left is less antisemitic than far right – The Forward
All Jewish News organizations.
The Anti-Semitic Revolution on the American Right - The Atlantic
Also be sure to avoid terms like left and right when talking about international news organizations from outside of the US, left and right mean the opposite in many countries.
Conservative and liberal are often more appropriate terms.
More like two millennia.
another lame attempt at historical revision by those that promote a christo-fascist autocracy in america ...
That's just more insulting nonsense that echos the "Dear Leader's" ignorant simplifications of complex issues.
go figure. the only book he's ever finished featured dick and jane ...
LMAO!
I like how he keeps shooting himself in the foot.
I am shocked and appalled. Just last year I was 'celebrating' the brilliance of his space exploits and 'zealous' of his cars and ability to land a rocket launcher directly back on its launch pad! How quickly one can 'fall' when true colors are shown. I can not, I will not, support anything Musk does at this point. He has gone too far. It's a shame to. When/if his businesses lose their luster - it will be because of the man not his inventions.
Unfortunately, I've been reading lately that "Never Forget" is turning into "Try Not To Forget" and when the last of the survivors are gone, it will be "Try To Remember" and eventually it just might be as much remembered as The Inquisition.
Why?
Out of curiosity what is the statute of limitations on guilt for shit you had nothing to do with? I suppose for some liberals there isn't one, the guilt must be passed from one generation to the next for all eternity like some religious ritual.
But normal people don't work that way. At some point, people look up and realize their responsibility for things that happened before they were born is actually exceedingly limited.
I don't think you're wrong because I don't think that those who are not guilty of committing atrocities should have to bear the guilt of those who did, but I also believe that there are certain lessons in life that must be remembered so that they not be repeated. Didn't Santayana make that point well enough? “Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it” My concern, as I indicated above, is that history will be forgotten and ignored, but that those who remember and would never repeat that history should not be blamed for it. But I don't feel that way about those who glorify the atrocities and those who committed them. For example, there is at least one member of NT who keeps blaming the present Chinese government for the Tiananmen Square killings. I differ in that I don't blame the present American government for interning the innocent Japanese-Americans during WW2, or for the fact that FDR would not permit the refugees on the SS St.Louis to disembark. All nations have their warts, don't they.
Okay, since you 'went' there. May the world do unto Nationalists what Nationalists do unto Others.
Then, nationalists will have something to mourn about and "not Forget." Case in point: In this country, 'the people' tried to remove reminders of the civil war confederacy era and Nationalists grumble to be remembered. Why? It was a crappy thing to do and way to "be" to Others.
There are reasons to remember that help and there are reasons to remember that hinder. Learn the distinction.
The problem for the world is it is full of trifling people. Even so, I can look across the seas and see the stupidity of Haiti and Africans hacking themselves to death and committing present day genocide on innocent people. This is the space age. . . and this is 'all' some people can. . .'express' to new world history. . . utter death and destruction. . .?
We need to remember all the idiocies in this world: You mentioned the Inquisition. The shame of the Church. Men who recklessly and with horrendous disregard for the love of God that with the approval of the head of the Catholic Church. . .history records the foolishness of the man who used torture devices on innocent people who would not bend the knee. . . not to a God (in a remote 'kingdom'). . .but to the Church.
We should remember it and the Catholic Church should bear its shame - because it occurred. That way, through remembrance, through record-keeping, the world can 'cry' and REMEMBER never to bring that shame (or its' cousin-forms) on the world again.
Similarly, we have memorial days, memorial ships (USS Arizona), and memorials to the atomic bomb drops, and 9/11 in this country. Finally, we have memorials and remembrances to school shootings. . . all to remind us 'forever and ever' of how neglectful, how cruel, how stupid, 'man' can be when 'he' forgets - all in hopes that one day we will REMEMBER to do better!
Agree 100%
Agree 200%
So I guess the question is how we maintain the knowledge of history and acknowledgement of those "warts" without shackling future generations with erroneous responsibility for things they had no part in.
Nobody has shackled anybody. We, collective, strive together to be better through our remembrances. The shame falls on the participants. . . many in the past who got their just desserts. Nobody can make me feel any shame for what Africans are doing in Sudan to other Sudanese. I grieve from afar, I anguish over the losses time and time again. . . but, I do not encapsulate or 'wear' shame because of what my ancestral folks do continuously. Every 'tub' must set on its own bottom.
But, can people talk about it. Can other blacks remember and establish 'holy' or memorials to the pain, horror, and the losses that spans time—of course.
Finally, we, nations, memorialize their internal horrors to express that good literally 'won' over it in the end.
Lastly, the 'best' solution to 'white, black, yellow, brown, "polka-dot" - Guilt is to not be affiliated or sympathetic to ideologies which cause national harm and desecration to innocent Others.
Riiight.
Yet when somebody says "There is too much focus on past guilt, and we need to move beyond that", people lose their minds.
Which we can do without shackling people with guilt.
Exactly. So you understand how everybody else feels. Excellent.
And I repeat: The 'best' solution to 'white, black, yellow, brown, "polka-dot" - Guilt is to not be affiliated or sympathetic to ideologies which cause national harm and desecration to innocent Others.
I am not 'shackled' to any stupid, mean-spirited, hateful, ruinous conduct that black Americans have done or might do in the future. It will be 'their' shame. I will read it, comment on it, even visit parks or locations to shake my head over it: Because it would have happened. They did 'that.' It's their shame. And, as for me, I can use the occasion to 'confirm' in my own head that it will never be me somewhere as much as it lies in me. . .doing similarly horrific and grave things to others in the future. I will not let it go. . . because the only way generations can learn about past tragedies are through records, remembrances, and stories - oh, the stories which articulate the past.
As you imagine we all, I mean, all stand on the shoulders of those who have come before. We should never try to 'scale the heights down' from 'up here.'
unless you point out who the party of the klan is, then all of a sudden it’s all in the past or they all became someone else. The democrats hypocrisy has no limits, their motto is “Never forget others transgressions but ours are someone else’s fault”.
Emphasis on " deceptively . . . . "
Case in point:
In the world we have "Lessons Learned" actions which are undertaken after calamities and wars so as to benefit from PRIOR troubles, "impossibilities," and create new solutions. None of that COULD happen if we have to continue experiences the same/similar calamities, conflicts, breakdowns, and wars every so 'often' in succeeding FORGETFUL/AMNESIA generations.
All that has to happen is for a new Holocaust (forbid!) to occur and some one who remembers says that's happened before - why didn't we know about it? To make the forgetful-'comfortable ones' look really, really stupid all over again .
All that guilt felt over the past won't be worth a damn if it is "gotten over " and the same CRAP occurs once again. All those apologies that amount to worthlessness when the same CRAP repeats.
What do you say to Holocaust deniers?
I treat them the same way I treat moon landing deniers.
I don't really say anything. I just sort of accept that they're a lost cause.
Here's where we run into trouble, CB. You're going to have one definition of "national harm" and.... Lord help us... "desecration", while other people are going to have different definitions. Just because you think it causes "national harm" does not mean it actually does. (I'm not going to touch "desecration" with a 10 foot pole) There are still a small number of people who think things like interracial marriage cause "national harm". Surely we're not going to listen to them.
Opinions are not always valid, and judgmental, inflammatory language impedes open discourse.
Excellent. Now you know how the overwhelming majority of white people feel about slavery and reparations. You know how the majority of men feel about "me too" and the concept of patriarchy in general. You understand why concepts like "white privilege" don't get any traction.
But as you are no doubt aware, there are some folks who are determined that we should all be required to validate their emotions on those matters, and they are very quick to pass judgement on anyone who dares to mind their own business.
Absolutely. I do love a good Isaac Newton paraphrase, BTW.
I have no idea what you are addressing under the context of memorials. Slavery and reparations is a financial issue, "me-too' - is a sexual set of issues, and patriarchy is likely in this context a governing style. Thus, they have little to nothing to do with remembrances, memorials, rituals, or ceremonies. These issues can not just be lumped and baked into each other loosely. Explanation for doing so would be required.
It's very simple.
People are not responsible for things they had no part in.
But that is just it. . .if today's world and its kindred: tomorrow's world, does not wish to be held accountable for the past doing of people within. . .then, let history 'educate' succeeding generations about 'paths which lead to destruction, regret, and utter disgust. That is done through REMEMBRANCE. Heavens, Jesus is REMEMBERED.
Do be clear as to what you mean, because I don't have a clue how to connect 'that' to this topic. Please share.
Fair point. So going back to the subject of the seed...
I think you and I agree that history (good or bad) needs to be remembered. I think we also agree that remembering history does not necessarily mean assuming or feeling guilt for past deeds over which we had no control.
So when Elon Musk says "there is too much focus on past guilt" and "we need to move beyond that", can we agree that there really isn't anything inherently terrible about those statements?
He didn't say "forget about it". He said "move beyond" personal remorse for an event most of us were not alive for anyway.
When Elon Musk, who is known the world over as a close adviser to Trump, speaks in a favorable way to a far right political party in Germany, he is assumed by Germany and other nations and entities to be speaking for the president of the United States.
Musk is incredibly irresponsible. As for "remembering", are young Germans told they are personally responsible for the Holocaust, or the nation is? It has been a long time slogan of Holocaust remembrance to say "never again" . The Holocaust was perpetrated by Germany less than 100 years ago. There are a few death camp guards who are still alive or just recently deceased. There are Germans today whose fathers or grandfathers were death camp guards.
It is not close to time to try and smooth over Germany's past regarding 1930's and 40's atrocities.
Complete nonsense.
No, he's just today's target for leftist nutters desperately trying to stir up hysteria. They'll move on to another one tomorrow.
What's the statute of limitations on this? How long do we expect people to grovel for shit they didn't do?
Well for how many generations does the Church of White Liberal Guilt demand remorse from (white) people who were not present at the time of the crime? There are undoubtedly Americans today who are descendants of members of Cortes' army that slaughtered 200,000 natives at Tenochtitlan in 1521. Are they required to feel guilty over it? Just exactly how far back do we go?
A 50 year old German today, in mid life, could have easily had a grandfather that took part in Holocaust atrocities. In other words, SOMEONE THEY KNEW. Your argument is that "who cares" ? IMO that is a worthless argument. Of course only the people who took part in the Holocaust were legally responsible, but right or wrong, a burden continues on the German people to keep these issues alive and in the public consciousness. The idea that no one needs to care about what happened 80 years ago is sick.
As for the rest of your reply to me, I think it is garbage.
The aftermath of slavery "ended" in 1964 with the Civil Rights Act. That is 61 years ago. A blink of an eye in historical terms.
A lot of whites who are obsessed with the idea of avoiding blame for racism say "we freed them 160 years ago, what else do they want?". Legal racial oppression existed for another 100 years. There are Americans alive today whose parents took part in protesting de-segregation of schools and restaurants and thought separate drinking fountains for whites and Negroes was a fine idea. You dont think these people instilled these beliefs in their children? LOL.
You don’t have to go back very far, Jack…In fact you can stay right here in North American, specially the US and Canada to keep it close to home and within your lifetime.
If you like a good dose of just one of the ‘’incidents’’ I suggest watching the documentary ‘’Sugarcane’’ it’s on Hulu and has been nominated for this years Academy Awards. This is a horror that took place in Canada and the US from 1890 to 1990. Well within your lifetime and mine.
I don’t think that anyone is asking you to feel quilt over something that was 500 years ago but more that you knowledge the act (general you) and have enjoyed the fruits of those things that did happen here in North American. In the case (s) of Sugarcane there isn’t any advantage to you but the inhumanity of the acts begs for people to see the horror of what happened right under your nose and speak up.
We both can discern what Elon Musk is about at it's "trending" now. The guilt he is talking about has a flavor to it: Conservative and extremism. It's toxic. He is meddling in politics and worse Elon is arguably the most 'elitist' of all people on the planet. And at this time he is working to influence ordinary people to look upon him as some transcendent figure that can 'instruct' (direct) them to greater heights and world 'order.' (Albeit he is not inviting any of us to compete against him). Many billionaires are now going to have to focus their attention on their 'brother' who is making big and questionable 'moves' in world politics.
Why would a bright man like Elon Musk demonstrate a lack of conscience to even suggest to German people what they should celebrate or memorialize? What is his 'end-game' by doing so? He should explain himself to the people explicitly on both sides of the issue and not make clandestine and public appearances disproportionately and out of balance with. . . conservatives. If he throws 'shade' on liberals they are morally right to call it out and more to the point do something about outsiders trying to rig and influence their politics.
Let's go back to the American revolutionary war which in July 1776 is CELEBRATED every year as a national holiday for the good it did us all. Let's move on to our veteran holiday and the good our armed services members perform for this nation on behalf of us all. Let's gather around for thanksgivings, it's holiday, meant to remember the good of travelers finding and settling in a new land that continues to receive us all, --- now then the opposite, for on any spectrum there is an expanse that is multi-directional. We remember our patriotic dead, we visit national cemeteries to those dead with public acts of remembrances, we can identify our dead through DNA and yet our nation has ritual services annually at the tomb of 'The Unknown Soldier." We calendar Memorial Day. Finally, world leaders gather together to remember 'D" Day. Is it any wonder that Germany and Germans wish to remember its Holocaust?
No one living is guilty of the transgressions of the past. By the way, Elon Musk using wording such as 'past sins' is a sly attempt to condition the heart of the people to FORGIVE the past and move on. (It's a psychological play.) By 'forgiving' the Nazis. . . it would naturally incur forgetting and surrendering the holding of memorials. Surely Elon is aware of this.
The question: Why should Germans extend grace to Nazis while Nazism still dwells and 'breathes' in the hearts of some of its citizens? Can 'Nazi Pride' be presented any better than 'White Pride'?
Yes.
No, my question is "why is that their fault"?
Your experience with that subject is the stuff of legend.
The subject is "past guilt". How many generations, how many years, how much penance do people who had no involvement have to pay before they can be absolved in the court of your feelings for shit they never actually did?
Bold statement, but OK.
And the bigotry of soft expectation is still rampant today.
I'm not sure how you haven't been paying attention to most of those people lamenting that their kids don't share any of their values. They're pretty loud about it.
Who do you 'know' in Germany is blaming today's German's for the Holocaust? Please clarify this. The German country will 'endure' many, many eons as a state. . . thus, by its very nature, it should remember all the 'compartments' of its historical happenings. Especially the horrible happenings which caused the nation to be the central focus of the world at one point. Especially a world war and its Causes.
Finally, no one is blaming Germans today for what their ancestors did. . . that would be foolish! What is being complained about is the aspiring of a return to actions which can land the country back to a future Nazism. That would be a grave misfortune. Especially since Germany apologized to the 'world' and swore as a nation: "Never to forget." Let the nation, let the Jewish people, remember (for as long as it takes).
Elon Musk has nothing vested in this. Thus, he should. . . stay out! Because this:
"It's good to be proud of German culture, German values, and not to lose that in some sort of multiculturalism that dilutes everything," Musk said.
Elon, - We know what you mean to say. You used a similar version of it in the American presidential election last year and it is not coming from a good place in your spirit -not a good place at all.
Meh. I hope not, but let's just say it won't surprise me if it happens.
So how long then?
The holocaust was nearly a century ago. Almost nobody involved is still alive. Why should the grandsons be ashamed?
Remember it? Sure. Lament it? Absolutely. Teach future generations about it? Definitely.
Assume guilt over it? I don't think so.
OK... so if objections to what he actually said make no sense, we're just going to make stuff up? Like "flavor" or whatever else we need to make up to justify people's feelings.
So this is just about personal prejudice against him.
So we're not just going to make stuff up, we're going to make really wild stuff up. Got it.
How many have you spoken with?
It sounds pretty much like he did.
It also sounds like you just don't like him and so you're scrambling for a reason to object to a straightforward, reasonable comment.
Remembering Germany's past doesn't mean their current younger generation is responsible.
I feel we should never forget the horrors of racism in the South in the past (slavery, etc). But if I remember those horrors (committed by White Americans)-- that doesn't mean that by remebering that as a "White American" I should necessarily feel guilty about slavery-- heck I wasn't even alive back then!
I think its important to remeber what happened-- remembering that doesn't mean that from now untilforever White Americans should feel guilty about what happeneed in the 1800s! That woukld just be stupid!
I don’t know Jack, I don’t set time limits, it will be different from those that were the victims and those that were the perpetrators.
Yes, that Holocaust was a close to a century ago, a blink of an eye in historical terms. So the grandsons are two generations removed, what they should or should not feel isn’t for me or you to put limits on, you did not experience it nor did I.
I was in Germany in 1959 not that long after the war in the US Army and I went to Dachau it was not a museum or tourist attraction then it was almost as it was in 1945, the gallows were still there as were the ovens. My thought was I hope every German for the next 1,000 years suffers greatly.
It was the same feeling I got when I stood on the land at Wounded Knee or when I walked the ‘’Trail of Tears’’ man’s inhumanity to another simply because of the color of our skin or the religion one follows.
In the end Jack, one can argue, I didn’t have anything to do with it or not. It’s their decision no one else’s. My point is that it did happen, there are perpetrators and victims. And we never seem to learn the lesson of humanity or acceptance, but we are good at excuses.
As many as it takes for whitey to pay those reparations.
I think that burden is on all of us to never forget because antisemitism is still happening today and right here in our own country.
Reparations in what form, money, land, how about equal treatment, level playing field any of those fit the bill, bugsy?
To put in perspective for you from my point of view it would be for the US government to honor each and every agreement/treaty that they entered into with native nations. In addition to return to the tribes the land that was illegally taken in the 1953/73 Tribal termination act and reinstate the federal recognition of the tribes that have been fighting to be instated since the that time. And to honor our sovereignty over our own land.
That sounds like a fair deal to me since everything the US did was illegal and the best (for whites) was the Marshall Trilogy from SCoTUS.
Now that would be fair and the American way in a land that declares that all men are created equal.
Who gets the land? The tribe who last occupied it before the US government? Or the tribe that tribe ethnically cleansed out of the area to take the land from? Or the tribe before that?
erican way in a land that declares that all men are created equal.
giving special privileges to certain Indian tribes is not consistent with the idea that all people are created equal. In fact, it's hard to square any tribal recognition or sovereignty with the concept that all men are created equal within the USA.
If a group of people can just do whatever they want and ignore precedence, then why cant people cross an imaginary man made border and enter whatever land north of them they want? Because the white man wrote their rules down on paper and the Indians didnt?
There has been a movement among some hispanics and indigenous called reconquista which is the claim that no one "owns" North America and people have the right to travel freely on the continent wherever they want. The establishment of "borders" is neither right or wrong, it just is. The divisions of the land are arbitrary, no?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Borders don't exist but the tribes that conquered the land immediately before white people came do in fact have ownership?
Who is convincing people such as yourself that they should feel guilty over the Holocaust? Who? Be clear, please. Because it strikes me that some people (likely Germans) want out from under what occurred 'wholesale' in order to be free and clear to do something similar once again as a function of what they would call, 'liberty.' Be clear, please.
How can the richest man on earth not be elite?
This discussion is not personal. Please do not try to make it about me.
Defense of the indefensible. Projection. I did not appear on jumbo-tron in Germany at a ADF support rally lending my elite influence to one side of the country's political system: Elon did it.
I don't either. Which causes me to challenge people who think they do.
My point exactly.
The further point being... that does not seem inconsistent with Elon's statement.
It is not just antisemitism. As soon as they start preaching that other, non-criminal groups are unwanted, socially malignant less-thans, the path towards fascism has begun. If one has been paying attention, the past 14 years has been a march towards it, right here in America. It is difficult to see because of all the bullshit that swirls around, most of the people who are involved in it will vehemently deny it, but it is there and it becomes worse by the day.
I have seen it. The hate and the vitriol gets worse every day. [deleted][✘]
I knew I could depend on you to show up and try to make a point so let’s take this further. The current land that we inhabit is known as ‘’reservations’’ was set aside by the white man for our use. That land is set by the white mans laws which we abide by, now the question of sovereignty comes into play, and in that regard you, white people and the US government have violated your own laws by illegally taking much of that land under at best dubious ‘’laws’’ but great shenigans. Also the many times that the Government has violated our sovereignty and we have taken them to court, this is a regular move by the government.
Now, when it comes to possession of the land the US Supreme Court ruled with the Marshall Trilogy that Indians cannot possess the land but can live on it, that of course was done so that we had no claim to it and actually goes back to the RCC and their laws of the ‘’Doctrine of Discovery’’….I know it’s important to you for some sad reason to point out that we Indians fought battles and were the same as others except we are red and the US just can’t have that.
There you go again, not knowing what you’re talking about. It is perfectly consistent since we were not citizens of the US until 1924 and are treated as sovereign dependent Nations. Which of course is an act by the US government. I could go into a lot more detail, court cases etc but I reallly don’t want to waste my time on someone that can’t understand the concept.
Oh, BTW the act is quite clear that we become US citizens while maintaining our citizenship in our Native Nation. So we are dual citizens.
Borders only exist because someone says they do. A photo from space shows the continents but no borders. Borders, for good or for bad, are arbitrary. They exist to a large extent because might makes right.
Lets say a massive army of migrants was raised and they take over Arizona and New Mexico. They would then have a legitimate right to those lands, correct ?
funny how that same person gets so offended by italian jokes, huh?
Ask the fellow on the cross, guilt is the mainstay grift of western theologies.
end on you to show up and try to make a point so let’s take this further. T
Great. We agree that you have no right to your land than Congress gives you, and that any claims based on possession other than Congress's grants are meaningless.
d your own laws by illegally taking much of that land under at best dubious ‘’laws’’ but great shenanigans
Lol. You are an American, you live by American laws. You don't get to decide laws that are lawfully passed and upheld in Court are "illegal." They simply aren't. The American government possesses the right of eminent domain over all the land in it's control. It can take my land, or yours.
That's equal treatment.[✘]
Yes, if the American army couldn't defend it to or they couldn't otherwise be ejected, it would be theirs. Basic familiarity of history that should demonstrate that to you. You've noticed the Celtic tribes no longer control England, right? The Romans conquered them. Then the Roman legions left and German raiders conquered the island, only to be in turn conquered by the French. That's how the world works. Nobody is walking around gnashing their teeth about the poor celts and their right to England and demanding the descendants of the Normans give them back their land in Sussex.
It's plays out that way all over the world. Closer to home, when the Lakota came in to the black Hills and slaughtered and otherwise ethnically cleansed the indians living there, they kept the land for a couple generations before the American government asserted it's ownership. The Lakota lost. Just like the tribes they took the land from did.
A really decent reply.
I know what is being argued here. . . that is, might makes right. Plain and simple. Call it what it is.
Not what I said at all, but you keep making up shit as you go along.
Your response has nothing to do with my comment. I never said that I decided that the laws were unlawful, the US court system stated that they were illegal and some were overturned.
Now do you understand? Cuz it’s getting quite boring playing you silly game.
You are incorrect once again, Sean. First in 1776 the Lakota moved into the Black Hills and battled the Cheyenne for them, the Lakota won and the Cheyenne were driven from the Black Hills, there was no slaughter or ethnic cleansing. Later the Cheyenne joined the Lakota to defeat Custer at Greassy Grace, (Litte Big Horn for you). In 1868 under the treaty of Fort Laramie the Lakota were awarded the Black Hills as part of their reservation. Of course expecting the US Government to keep its word is fools mission. In 1876 congress passed the Indian Appropiation Bill and sized the Black Hills from the Lakota. In turn the Lakota sued the government in 1923 SCOTUS said the land was taken illegally and told the US that they had to pay the Lakota for the land. The money was appropriated and the Lakota refused it saying that they want the land, money means nothing. And today that it where it stands. There is well over a billion dollars available to the Lakota if they choose to go for money or stand by their beliefs and demand the land. The case is ‘’United States Supreme Court in the US vs Sioux Nation 1980’’
Next, the situation in the US and Indians is far different than the Celts, Romans, Irish or any of the other groups in Europe, if we were able to grasp the first paragraph you would understand that.
So end of story and the end of me educating you.
Cheers.
That's all you'll ever get. You're wasting your time.
gee, I thought it was the irish that invented arrow shirts out west after the civil war ... /s
So if Mexico invaded and took over Arizona and New Mexico the people who live there now would have no reason to complain, right?
The Europeans decided the Indians didnt own land because they didnt fence it off. According to John Locke, fencing off land and creating clearings by cutting down trees is all you need to make land "yours".
A true bucket of BS by Locke.
When Adam delved and Eve span
Who was then the gentle man?
Elon Musk could become a serious threat to world stability. He needs to be put in a strait jacket.
Is he a patriotic American? I doubt it, so why does anyone pretend that he is. Why is he making favorable speeches to far right political groups in Germany? No way a patriotic American would do that.
I don't consider him an American. I don't care if he's been naturalized. He knows nothing about Americans or our culture. Or cares
You are absolutely correct, as usual.
I am?
Thanks
Caught you off guard there, eh my dear? (Chuckles.)
Just because a person is brilliant (In one or more fields) doesn't necessarily mean thay are of high moral character. There's zero correlation.
Traits like morality-- or even common sense-- are often not correlated to creative brilliance (. for example, scientific genius!).
Many of the smartest people I have ever met are plagued by personality disorders.
thanks, but what personality disorder?
Have we ever met?
we might've seen each other going in opposite directions at 80mph on some 2 lane farm to market road in texas.
A world-class citizen that could be welcomed anywhere in the world and he throws his lot to people who exist to 'divide and conquer.' It's the saddest thing in life to be. Hasn't this world gone through enough HATRED AND SELF-ABUSE to last its 'lifetime'?!
WTF is a "world class citizen"?
Are you one? Am I?
(Just my opinion-- but I've found it to not be useful to be so judgemental ofpeople-- rather I find it more useful to just describe various traits without trying to make an overall judegement of people/
Your "opening" is over-the-top. Where have I given you an impression that you can continue to address me that way? I do not.
That said, I choose to respond to the question:
Global citizenship is a form of transnationality , specifically the idea that one's identity transcends geography or political borders and that responsibilities or rights are derived from membership in a broader global class of "humanity" .
This does not mean that such a person denounces or waives their nationality or other, more local identities, but that such identities are given "second place" to their membership in a global community. [ 1 ] Extended, the idea leads to questions about the state of global society in the age of globalization . [ 2 ]
In general usage, the term may have much the same meaning as " world citizen " or cosmopolitan , but it also has additional, specialized meanings in differing contexts. Various organizations, such as the World Service Authority , have advocated global transnational citizenship .
The field of global citizenship, as a form of transnationality is transnationalism .
Are you a world-class citizen, I don't know - you decide.
There is such an important difference between being corrective against guilt and being defiant on guilt's behalf!
I don't understand the meaning of that? Corrective of your own actions? Corrective of other peoples actions thatb you judge to be inferiror to yours?
There is such an important difference between taking positive actions to alleviate guilt and being contemptuous of why guilt was 'ever' warranted. Nationalists have a tendency to resist the former and embrace the latter.
The problem with Musk: What permission structure gives him, a naturalized American, the right to tell other nations what they can memorialize?
It is why billionaires like Bill Gates are speaking out: It is not a good look for billionaires to use their wealth to 'tread on me' —the people of the world. It will backfire on the billionaire class as a whole once people take assessment of their feeling on this.
For that matter, what gives you-- or me-- or antone the right to tell other nations what to do?
Personally I don't feel I need anyone's permission to tell other nations (or other people) what to do-- I can tell anyone anything (but may in some situations have to deal with the consequences of my actions...)
:ook at some of the stupid things i say on NT-- I don't need to ask permission! (And if its really stupid-- or violates the rules...well, so be it!
This is not about me; you; us. It is a discussion about a 'news-maker' in America and overseas. The distinction is important to realize. That is, when NT starts making headlines. . .then wisdom should/will impress (weigh on us) to guard and choose our words/discussion more than we do - because of how it can/will be 'received.' )
I am sure that it is just serendipitous, but
Look where the flag is....
I know where I'd like it to be ...
I think that it is a specious argument to say, "Hey, we're not antisemitic, so we are OK."
The Anti Defamation League (ADL) marks them as antisemitic, so I am not really sure of that line of reasoning, anyway.
Any party that is based on meaness and hate should have no place in this world. Unfortunately, Elon Musk is trying to spread that hate through deceptive means. We are watching this brand of hate and fascism grow in our own country through the ruinous machinizations of Trump, MAGA and the 2025 Project that he supposedly knows nothing about.
Is this what we are to become? Mean spirited people who hide behind the veneer of money and lies?
Well, they could deport them to Columbia-- except they won't want them.
But no problema-- if Columbia refuses to admit them, Germany could threaten columbia with tariffs-- theyn they will accept the deportees!
We?
Please don't include me in that "We"-- I haven't become like that!
I am a nice person, often very kind to people in fact!
Is it OK, now, to say "Musk is a fascist"?
How about "Trump is a fascist"?
How about "Many/most Republicans are fascists"?
How about "There are lots of fascists on NT"?
At what point do TPTB recognize reality?
I think that the Term should be allowed (like the judge in Germany said) if enough evidence has accumulated to make it a “value judgment based on facts.”
You know, if it hates like a Fascist, behaves in a manner consistent with fascism, the term fascist should not only be allowed, but should be encouraged, where applicable, to give name to what is there.
So to all of you fascist-leaning people out there, embrace the term. Your President should also. It fits. Be proud of your Fascism, because if you aren't, surely no one else will be.
Good point.
In the 1930s, fascists embraced their name. Now they avoid it. I wonder what caused the change...
You are onto something. Clearly, the best thing Democrats can do is keep calling everyone who disagrees with them a fascist. It works particularly well when it's used against people advocating more freedom and less government regulation. Also, Democrats should give Elizabeth Warren and Sheldon Whitehouse as much camera time as possible. It's working wonders for democratic popularity.
Let's don't be too hasty to discount the value of this tactic.
Saying "fascist" all the time is a perfect tool for anyone who is ill informed and intellectually lazy. Let's face it, if you embrace identity politics, you're probably not smart enough to explain or defend positions in any logical manner, so shouting "fascist" is probably the best you'll be able to manage anyway.
But, MAGA is not advocating for more freedoms. . .unless its MAGA'S freedom to fire, displace, ruin the the freedoms of Others. Just ask transpeople in the services who will be 'released' any time now simply because MAGA's literally hate 'Trans-Americans' and will use a pretext of temporarily disability as cover to carry out the freedom-less act! Strict-father morality is CRAPPY morality. Whole people abused and made to go hungry and naked in the streets while some jive-ass CONFORMANCE conservatives take their career placement. That is not "advocating more freedom' - its a damn, funky,. . . .
MAGAs do not wish to have a 'full and complete' discussion on the top, because if/when. . . .