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Southern Baptist Convention's opposition to IVF leaves some hurt and grappling with their options

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  4 weeks ago  •  71 comments

By:   Bracey Harris

Southern Baptist Convention's opposition to IVF leaves some hurt and grappling with their options
Some Southern Baptist women said they were already grappling with infertility or undergoing IVF in ways that align with their faith.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Alicia Amos cried after she learned of the resolution issued by the Southern Baptist Convention on Wednesday opposing the use of in vitro fertilization as it is widely practiced, and thought of her 3-year-old daughter.

Her spirited toddler was conceived through IVF, making her among the roughly 2% of children now born annually as a result of the procedure.

Amos, 32, grew up Southern Baptist, and she still belongs to the nation's largest Protestant denomination, attending a church with her husband in Missouri. She doesn't want to "disparage" the convention or the delegates who voted for the resolution.

But she doesn't want her daughter wounded.

"I never, ever want her to feel shame for the way that she was conceived and brought into this world, because she is a precious, precious gift," Amos said.

Southern Baptist women who spoke with NBC News said they were already grappling with infertility or undergoing IVF in ways that align with their faith — even before messengers in Indianapolis endorsed the resolution opposing the common practice of IVF.

In some cases, these women's beliefs encompass conservative-leaning positions about when life begins. But many noted that the issues raised in the resolution, such as the handling of surplus embryos and genetic testing of embryos, are complex ones where there's not a sole consensus among Christians.

For some, the resolution's tone was deeply hurtful.

While the document acknowledged the "searing pain" of infertility, it also characterized certain aspects of IVF as "dehumanizing." It argued that "not all technological means of assisting human reproduction are equally God honoring or morally justified."

"'Dehumanizing' is a very tough word to swallow," said Danielle Smith, 39, a Southern Baptist who lives in Alabama. She conceived her 2-year-old daughter through IVF.

The convention's criticism of IVF has landed a blow at a time when churches are struggling with declining attendance, younger generations are becoming more distanced from religion, and 1 in 6 adults globally experience infertility.

The denomination's membership has declined in recent years, dipping just below 13 million in 2023.

It's also coming in an election year where Republicans have tried to broadcast their support for reproductive technologies with a recent Senate proposal, while blocking a Democratic-led effort to protect the procedure.

At the national level, Republicans have tried to insulate themselves from the intense backlash to an Alabama Supreme Court decision in February declaring frozen embryos to be children. The SBC's resolution, which affirms the court's stance, however, encourages members to push for government action on the issue.

House Speaker Mike Johnson, R-La., who is Southern Baptist, was not involved in Wednesday's debate, but told NBC News that the long-term storage of embryos is "an ethical dilemma" for members who believe life begins at conception.

"So, if it can be done with just a small number of embryos created, I think that's the legislative solution that a lot of people are trying to find," he said. "But in Congress here, we support IVF, we support families, we support the sanctity of life, and I think that's part of it."

Candice Kelm, 39, said she is unsure if the government should regulate IVF, but agreed with the resolution's encouragement of what the statement refers to as "embryo adoption" — a process in which a patient, or couple, might agree to donate their remaining embryos to another.

Kelm, a Southern Baptist who lives in Texas, struggled with conceiving despite trying fertility treatments and receiving surgeries for her endometriosis. Her doctor told her IVF was her last option. But prayer took her down a different path.

"We just felt like we could not choose to create more embryos when there was already an abundance of embryos," said Kelm, who agrees with the SBC's opposition to discarding embryos. She received support from a nondenominational ministry for couples experiencing infertility called Waiting in Hope.

In a statement, the group said it encourages couples not to "destroy embryos," but noted "it's important to note that Christians hold varying perspectives on IVF" and that "there are areas of disagreement on which steps may be ethically questionable."

"It is not for us to decide if God leads a couple to IVF," the statement said. "He is the author of life and our fertility stories."

Kelm and her husband, Brent, ultimately "adopted" eight embryos and went through four transfers.

"We lost all eight of them, and we deeply grieved that loss," she said.

Kelm acknowledged her own options wouldn't have been possible without IVF and doesn't want families to feel condemned for undergoing the process.

"I think it's important to remember that any child is a gift from the Lord," she said. "There's no caveat about only if they were created in this way."

Before Amos and her husband had their baby girl, they had heartbreak.

Amos still remembers the November 2019 morning that left her crying on the floor of her shower. After a third round of intrauterine insemination, another test was negative.

She said she found herself telling God, "I can't keep doing this."

Like Kelm, her faith also shaped what she did next. In July 2020, she began embryo transfers through IVF.

Amos declined to give details about their plans for her remaining embryos, because she doesn't want others to feel judged.

She also noted that while adoption, which the resolution encourages, is a decision some families make, it's also complex. "Sometimes within the infertility community, that 'just adopt' phrase can be really harmful," she said. Amos said it can also place a burden on adoptees, casting them in a role it's not their responsibility to fill.

This winter, Smith drove down to Montgomery to lobby Alabama legislators to protect IVF.

She said she has wrestled with certain decisions because of her upbringing. Smith chose, for example, not to do genetic testing. And she understands there are those who believe life begins at conception.

"It's not that simple to say because IVF includes the possibility of embryos being destroyed, then it should be condemned and it's immoral," she said.

"What I want people to understand who are forming opinions is they're probably hurting someone who they likely care and love about," Smith continued. "These congregations are likely filled with IVF parents, with IVF babies, with IVF children. It completely broke my heart for all of us in this situation who likely wouldn't be parents without it."

Her own church home, she said, has been supportive. Her women's group prayed for her as she faced infertility and celebrated when her daughter was born.

She still plans to go to church on Sunday.

"The Southern Baptist Convention doesn't dictate my personal relationship with Jesus Christ," Smith said.


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Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1  Buzz of the Orient    4 weeks ago

800

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2  sandy-2021492    4 weeks ago

I read an article lately about how women are leaving the church more quickly than men.  I wonder why?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    4 weeks ago

efforts by rwnj theocrats to institute religious indoctrination in our public schools is meant to suppress that erosion...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @2.1    4 weeks ago

Those damned theocrats!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.1.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  devangelical @2.1    4 weeks ago

Yeah, if they try to keep the girls from thinking for themselves, they might take longer to go through these steps.

  1. I'm a woman (or future woman), and apparently according to the Bible, my main value is in giving birth to children.
  2. Well, damn (I mean "darn".  I would never cuss.), God made me with something wrong with my plumbing (or made my husband with something wrong with his plumbing), and we can't have kids the old-fashioned way.
  3. We should see a fertility doctor.
  4. Oh, wait, I'm not allowed to see a fertility doctor, because some dude I've never met and will never meet thinks I shouldn't.
  5. I'm worthless in the eyes of God and his church, because I can't give birth.  And that dude I've never met and will never meet wants to keep it that way.
  6. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.  My tithes will now be going to a fertility clinic instead of his untaxed pocket.
 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    4 weeks ago
if they try to keep the girls from thinking for themselves

That requires a college education.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.1.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    4 weeks ago
That requires a college education.

Why the irrational hatred for education, Vic?

Do you want a doctor taking care of you who only learned "the three Rs"?

I bet you don't.

Do you want a lawyer who only took high-school level civics class?

Probably not.

The last time I went to my mom's church, one of the elders, who definitely sought the benefit of medical care from educated people, tried to tell us that "Everything we need to know is in the Bible."  So, I guess the Bible told his doctor how to treat his heart attack, and how to treat his wife's cancer.  That, or he was spouting bullshit (he was) under the guise of religious education, and expecting that being named as an elder meant that we wouldn't question that and, you know, think for ourselves. 

Even my very devout Mom laughs at him, but still goes to church.  Out of respect for her, I quit going because I couldn't repress the eye rolls at all of this self-proclaimed authority and knowledge of everything, in opposition to reality.

But he also says "Education takes you away from God."

So I'd say that irrational hatred of education is likely based in fear of losing one's self-proclaimed authority and knowledge over everything when that authority is questioned and found to be based on superstition.  Oh, that, and the loss of tithes.  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.5  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.1    4 weeks ago
Those damned theocrats!

shouldn't you reserve that comment for the second week of november?

funny how the oh so pious xtian conservatives, the alleged defenders of the constitution, completely disavow the 1st amendment in order to further their agenda of eliminating equal rights for all americans, deny advancements of medical science and bodily autonomy to one gender, and all while supporting the most vile anti-democracy and convicted felon POTUS candidate in our history that has made a lifelong mockery of their religious principles. small wonder the geezus biz/rwnj money laundry is shedding members with the blatant hypocrisy displayed by fake xtians. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.6  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.4    4 weeks ago

I'm in favor of education.

Let us return to it.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.1.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.6    4 weeks ago

Your comments denigrating it suggest otherwise.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.8  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.7    4 weeks ago

My comments are clear and concise. I believe in education, but that is not what we are currently getting from our institutions of higher learning.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.9  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.8    4 weeks ago
I believe in education, but that is not what we are currently getting from our institutions of higher learning.

the maga movement in congress is testament to that...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.1.10  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.8    4 weeks ago
but that is not what we are currently getting from our institutions of higher learning.

In your opinion, based on your assumptions.  Your comments indicate that you think anybody who thinks differently from you must have been "indoctrinated" to do so. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.11  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.10    4 weeks ago
Your comments indicate

That sounds like projection.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.12  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.10    4 weeks ago
you think anybody who thinks differently from you must have been "indoctrinated" to do so. 

while supporting religious indoctrination in public schools...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.13  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    4 weeks ago

No Vic, it sounds like an honest assessment...

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.14  Tessylo  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.4    4 weeks ago

'Education takes you away from god.'

And all theocratic ignorance and not thinking for oneself.

Makes me think of that phony asshole Buttker and his commencement speech and telling all those little women to forget the degrees they just got and go get knocked up and be a housewife.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.1.15  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    4 weeks ago

Nah, Vic, it's what you've been saying.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.16  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    4 weeks ago

That requires a theocracy

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.14    4 weeks ago

he never said that, why fabricate things?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.18  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.1.5    4 weeks ago

That was quite a spineless ass kissing mushroom sucking display at the Capitol the other day.

How they allowed that traitor there in the first place is beyond me.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.19  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.1.9    4 weeks ago

maga bowel movement

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.20  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    4 weeks ago

That's usually all you provide

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.21  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.14    4 weeks ago
go get knocked up

it was a catholic college, so I can assure you that most of the female student body there spent the last 4 years trying very hard to avoid that a few times a week...

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.22  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.1.9    4 weeks ago

I believe in indoctrination . . .

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.23  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.22    4 weeks ago

I believe what I'm told to believe . . .

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.24  CB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.4    4 weeks ago

Vic is alluding to getting rid of the Department of Education and letting school-choice (academies) educate the youth of tomorrow. I would like to share that those 'elites' in education and the sciences are responsible for giving us EINSTEIN and Oppenheimer. Names that are renown in the annals of science and history.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.25  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.24    4 weeks ago

The Dept. of Education has been spectacularly ineffective.

Since its inception in the 1970's, our test scores have steadily declined.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2.1.26  Sean Treacy  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.25    4 weeks ago
ce its inception in the 1970's, our test scores have steadily declined.

And the amount of money spent per student has skyrocketed...

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2.1.27  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.8    4 weeks ago
I believe in education, but that is not what we are currently getting from our institutions of higher learning.

It's hard to imagine a comment like that when, in reality, there are millions of students in colleges and universities across the country gaining outstanding educations in a broad range of disciplines from various liberal arts to a plethora of sciences, engineering, medicine, etc.  

Hard to imagine unless one realizes it's of a piece with all of the other right wing propaganda being shoved down the throats of the American people such as:

The free press is fake news.  Elections are rigged.  The judiciary is corrupt.  The economy is a disaster.  Christianity is under attack.  Only white people are subject to racial discrimination.  Etc., etc., ad nauseum.

It's all nothing more than reactionary propaganda designed to undermine the American way of life.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.28  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @2.1.27    4 weeks ago

Imagine that!  I used to work at the University of Maryland, Baltimore.  The Campus of the Professions.  They have a School of Dentistry, Law, Medicine, Pharmacy, Social Work.

I worked for the School of Medicine, Department of Medicine, Education office.

Where folks young and old go to be indoctrinated! 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.29  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.25    4 weeks ago

I don't know, but would think that educators, because of whom they are as a class, would know how to see their professional shortcomings and straightway repair deficiencies. If it is needed (I have not researched DOE or school test grades overall) it is time to fix what is broken and renew DOE's reputation.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.30  Texan1211  replied to  CB @2.1.29    4 weeks ago

good luck with that dream

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.31  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.28    4 weeks ago

Had a lot of work done at the School of Dentistry also.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.32  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    4 weeks ago

"Some Southern Baptist women said they were already grappling with infertility or undergoing IVF in ways that align with their faith."

They can always go to a bar and pick up some stranger to fuck them.  No problem.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
2.1.33  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.1    4 weeks ago

Damn right! The bane of this country.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.34  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.28    4 weeks ago

I knew I was forgetting something - they also have a School of Nursing

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    4 weeks ago
women are leaving the church more quickly than men

women are usually less susceptible to con jobs, they've heard it all before...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.2.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  devangelical @2.2    4 weeks ago

Well, typically, women are more religious, so I'm not sure you're right, at risk of saying something uncomplimentary to members of my sex.  But we're also raised to be more compliant and conciliatory.

But recently, that's been changing, according to what I read.  Women are starting to realize that they get shafted by the Abrahamic religions, and that they don't have to take it anymore.  So they're leaving the church.  And the church doesn't like it, because women were doing the grunt work.

Sorry, church guys.  If you want to eat some good fried chicken at that church pot luck, you'd best get the Crisco hot.  You want potato salad?  Start some water boiling and get to peeling that 10 pounds of potatoes.  Apple pie? Start rolling out the dough, gentlemen. 

The sanctuary and church restrooms need a good cleaning?  Let us show you where the broom closet is.

We need volunteers for Vacation Bible School?  Well, step up, lads.  Who's baking cookies for snack time?  Who gets to clean up the Playdough?  And we need a pianist to accompany the little angels for music time.  You'll love this year's music selections.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.1    4 weeks ago
If you want to eat some good fried chicken at that church pot luck, you'd best get the Crisco hot.  You want potato salad?  Start some water boiling and get to peeling that 10 pounds of potatoes.  Apple pie? Start rolling out the dough, gentlemen.

That's what Walmart is for. And they will shuck out the money for custodial help

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.2.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.2    4 weeks ago
That's what Walmart is for.

They'll have to do the ordering/shopping.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.3    4 weeks ago

LOL!

Forgot about that. I'm glad Mr G isn't helpless

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
2.3  evilone  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    4 weeks ago
I read an article lately about how women are leaving the church more quickly than men.

The convention did block the ban on women ministers. It doesn't matter that many women lead churches have already split away from the main SBC. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3  Nerm_L    4 weeks ago

Oh, good, Democrats have found another way to tear apart families, institutions, and communities for fun and profit.  Let's not think about IVF becoming an extremely lucrative side side gig for abortion specialists.  Wonder if they're required to pay their fair share of taxes?

Yep, science allows humans to do many things.  But that doesn't mean those possibilities are good.  Democrats only need pick and choose the science that can be turned into a gaslighting weapon.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @3    4 weeks ago

Ah, yes, those damned DNC fertility clinics.

Are you seriously under the impression that only Dems support or use fertility services, Nerm?

But that doesn't mean those possibilities are good.

Well, you go ahead and tell children conceived by IVF that they're only here because the evil scientific DNC fertility clinics weaponized fertility science.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.1  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1    4 weeks ago

we're only a very short distance from the US version of a rwnj religious/morality police. oh yeah, be still my heart...

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.2  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1    4 weeks ago
Are you seriously under the impression that only Dems support or use fertility services, Nerm?

That's what Democrats claim.  Democrats want to 'own' those who utilize IVF.  (And the political donations are good, too.  It's a two-fer.)

But Democrats want to hide those providing the 'service' behind a curtain.  Democrats don't want to talk about what IVF entails, how the science requires creating an over abundance of embryos, and how the unneeded embryos are commoditized as another money skim.

Those who perform the IVF procedures are not providing charity work.  They expect boatloads of money in exchange for their 'science'.

Well, you go ahead and tell children conceived by IVF that they're only here because the evil scientific DNC fertility clinics weaponized fertility science.

Well, you can't claim an IVF baby was created by natural means.  And the IVF baby was the only embryo that was selected and survived.  What happened to the rest?  When did we begin allowing people (of questionable backgrounds) dictate the human potential just because they wear a lab coat?

Why does that lab coat impart a higher moral authority than a priest's cassock?  When did exploiting the human condition become the highest calling of science?  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.2    4 weeks ago
Why does that lab coat impart a higher moral authority than a priest's cassock?

science versus superstition? gee, that's a tough one...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.2    4 weeks ago
That's what Democrats claim.

You have a quote?

Democrats don't want to talk about what IVF entails, how the science requires creating an over abundance of embryos,

This has been common knowledge since the MacCaughey septuplets.

Those who perform the IVF procedures are not providing charity work.  They expect boatloads of money in exchange for their 'science'.

Nobody ever said they were.  As it happens, neither do oncologists, cardiologists, ER physicians, Ob-Gyns, or any other practitioners of medical science in general.

Well, you can't claim an IVF baby was created by natural means.

I never did.  But I'm not the one pushing the "science is evil and being weaponized" bullshit here.

Why does that lab coat impart a higher moral authority than a priest's cassock?

Who said it did?  

BTW, Southern Baptist preachers don't wear cassocks, and aren't called priests, because it sounds too Catholic, and they don't like sounding Catholic.  They consider Catholics to be idolaters.

When did exploiting the human condition become the highest calling of science?  

Why do you think that helping couples overcome infertility issues is "exploitation"?  Do you think cardiologists doing bypasses is "exploitation"?  Atherosclerosis is part of the human condition.  Do you think my c-section "exploited" me?  Difficulty in childbirth, even to the death of mother and fetus, is part of the human condition.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.5  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.4    4 weeks ago
You have a quote?

Straight faced token.       

Is it really necessary to regurgitate everything on Google?  Kamala Harris certainly is not trying to reach across the aisle.  Notice that the straight faced token is pledging to defend making babies (who aren't aren't really babies) for the purpose of protecting the science.  IVF babies are the product to be exploited.

Nobody ever said they were.  As it happens, neither do oncologists, cardiologists, ER physicians, Ob-Gyns, or any other practitioners of medical science in general.

Correct.  Patients are the product being exploited for money.  Insurance and government have become the consumers of health care -- they pay the bills.  We are being sold to the government for profit.

BTW, Southern Baptist preachers don't wear cassocks, and aren't called priests, because it sounds too Catholic, and they don't like sounding Catholic.  They consider Catholics to be idolaters.

That is correct.  But I made no such claims.  And trying to attribute those claims to what I wrote is a red herring stretch.  

Why do you think that helping couples overcome infertility issues is "exploitation"?  Do you think cardiologists doing bypasses is "exploitation"?  Atherosclerosis is part of the human condition.  Do you think my c-section "exploited" me?  Difficulty in childbirth, even to the death of mother and fetus, is part of the human condition.

They are not performing charitable work.  How many oncologists, cardiologists, and gynecologists live in poverty?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.5    4 weeks ago
Straight faced token.

None of that says what you claim, Nerm.  You said

That's what Democrats claim.

in response to my question

Are you seriously under the impression that only Dems support or use fertility services, Nerm?

None of those sources have Democrats making that claim, Nerm.  Only you say Democrats make that claim, and you can't back it up.  You're making a false accusation, and doubling down on it when called on it.

Patients are the product being exploited for money.

So, you're for free, socialized healthcare?  Slave labor by healthcare providers?  What, exactly, do you propose as a solution?

But I made no such claims.

You're the one who brough up cassocks in an article about the Southern Baptist Convention.

They are not performing charitable work.

Why are you repeating this?  Nobody claimed that they are.  Do you want healthcare providers to live in poverty?  If so, why?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.7  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @3.1.3    4 weeks ago

What the huh?

What the fuck?

Where/when did those 'priests' get their MDs and become gynecologists and all of the gqp?????????

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.8  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.7    4 weeks ago
when did those 'priests' get their MDs and become gynecologists

sunday school...

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
3.1.9  Gordy327  replied to  devangelical @3.1.3    4 weeks ago

Indeed. Make mine science. Everytime.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.10  devangelical  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.9    4 weeks ago

facts versus fables...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.11  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1    4 weeks ago
only Dems support or use fertility services, Nerm?

Wait....isn't this article about the SBC and the women members who have used IVF? Do you think any of them are democrats?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.12  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.11    4 weeks ago
Do you think any of them are democrats?

I'm going to take a chance and say that most of them vote red.

Which is why Nerm can't back up his claim.

Plenty of conservatives use fertility services.  It wouldn't be a political issue at all if even more conservative conservatives hadn't made it into one.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.13  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.12    4 weeks ago

it will be hilarious when the blame for trump's inevitable loss in november lands in the laps of thumpers...

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
3.1.14  afrayedknot  replied to  devangelical @3.1.13    4 weeks ago

“it will be hilarious when the blame for trump's inevitable loss in november lands in the laps of thumpers...”

Less in those that will never accept the results bit more in the hands of those that in their silence and in their hearts and in their minds refuse to believe in the lies and misinformation and thus dismiss them all. Hope rests eternal. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.15  devangelical  replied to  afrayedknot @3.1.14    4 weeks ago

I'm totally disregarding the predictable chants of stolen/fixed elections, missing ballots, and immigrants voting...

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
3.1.16  afrayedknot  replied to  devangelical @3.1.15    4 weeks ago

“…the predictable chants of stolen/fixed elections, missing ballots, and immigrants voting...”

The table has been set and it is but a feast for the feckless.

Oh so hungry, but with no concern for the lack of nourishment and only a desire to devour a meal planted in toxic soil, fed by fetid waters, and cultivated by those who could not care less if you starve to death…as they smugly invite you to eat and drink and of course pay the price for your indulgence. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.17  devangelical  replied to  afrayedknot @3.1.16    4 weeks ago

meh, they're used to lapping up bullshit by now...

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
3.1.18  Gordy327  replied to  devangelical @3.1.10    4 weeks ago

Facts/Science for the win.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
3.1.19  bugsy  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.18    4 weeks ago

When leftists start giving some/believing in, then you may have a point.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.20  devangelical  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.18    4 weeks ago

the SBC is usually on the wrong side of history...

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
3.1.21  Gordy327  replied to  bugsy @3.1.19    4 weeks ago

What do leftists or beliefs have to do with anything?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4  JBB    4 weeks ago

To their credit, Southern Baptists officially come out against slavery...

In 1995!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1  CB  replied to  JBB @4    4 weeks ago

It is to their credit and then I found a problem: The SBC is back-pedaling now that they sense conservatism is moving 'forward' with its agenda. . . they are pushing their old status quo positions incrementally so.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @4.1    4 weeks ago

Wait....they're backpedaling over slavery?Q!?!?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.2  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.1.1    4 weeks ago

They will in time. TG, certain groups have been biding their time. . .playing along (because it is expedient or they saw no other avenue around to keep their former stances). Now, similar to what we see with Justice Thomas, senior justice on the SCOTUS, in his 'muscular opinings' he is taking the leading role in driving the supreme court back to a 1776-79' constitutional worldview. Fittingly for the time then, conservativism was the status quo. It was so, because we as a nation knew a lot less about our world than we know today. Back to the SBC.

Subsequently, the SBC is returning to its "old self" - its true self. That is, no women pastors (males only), no IVF, etceteras. . . can the apology for slavery be 'next' wiped away? Yes! As a minority I have grown accustomed to hearing about, reading about, and experiencing regressive stances that take back what was once given in so-called, "good faith." 

Yes, SBC with a stroke of a pen can reconstitute its old values and forsake what we thought they were 'becoming.'

(This may not be as clear as I would like it - I am distracted by a couple of telephone calls that are 'incoming' and on hold. If you wish for more elaboration-let me know. :) )

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.3  CB  replied to  CB @4.1.2    4 weeks ago

Robert P. Jones wrote: 'Authentic healing rests on truth-telling and repair.' 

The SBC by updating (or reneging) on its statements of truth which helps move the organization forward and away from its past wrongs. . . demonstrates and sets up that its "modernizing" new stances on hot-button issues were never true or heart-felt. As soon as the organization could see its way backward-now its regressing as an organization. That is, truly this organization has not changed (much, if at all). The church apology for slavery, and its moving to get rid of IVF testifies to a lack of sincere growth on the part of the leadership.

Another by example: Representative Bryon Donalds, a black man and congressman, had the gall to sit in the face of black people and verbalize that a people, blacks were more of a family when they followed their conservative masters behavior and Jim Crow would not permit them to behave differently for its own purposes. But that is alone is not what makes his remarks-remarkable.

For that, one has to consider that Rep. Donalds put the thought into 'the air' with intent that others (white and black and maybe 'others') would catch it and spread it

That is how national past wrongs. . . get revisited and a chance at a second-life.

 
 

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