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The “Jimmy Clean Hands” Election

  

Category:  Op/Ed

Via:  hallux  •  one month ago  •  64 comments

By:   Tom Nichols - The Atlantic

The “Jimmy Clean Hands” Election

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Some of the people who once supported Donald Trump seem to want him to win, but without the moral stain of voting for him themselves.

Floating Above the Fray

In the director Sergio Leone’s final movie, the 1984 crime epic   Once Upon a Time in America , a group of Jewish gangsters in early-20th-century New York City goes from rags to riches and then to disaster. Along the way, they serve as muscle for the labor movement against cops and strikebreakers, which is fine with everyone except Jimmy O’Donnell, a rising and idealistic union organizer. O’Donnell—a small role played to perfection by   the late Treat Williams —eventually comes to rely on the guns of the gangsters as he rises through the union ranks. But despite being up to his neck in the corruption around him, he keeps his distance from the thugs, who cynically nickname him “Jimmy Clean Hands.”

The Republican Party now has an entire subculture of Jimmy Clean Hands types, who claim to recognize that Trump is completely unfit for office and have said that they will not vote for him—yet will not vote to stop him.

Some Republicans have gone the full distance back to Trump, criticizing him but also now pledging to vote for him. Bill Barr comes to mind, as does Nikki Haley. Barr is a true believer, and Haley is a shallow opportunist, but both are pillars of courage next to Republicans such as Paul Ryan,   Chris Christie , and John Bolton, the supposed guardians of the guardrails who have made the case against Trump but have also vowed not to vote for either Trump or Joe Biden. (Bolton has said that he will write in Dick Cheney.) Even former Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, a more moderate Republican now running for a Senate seat, has  said  that he will write in a “symbolic vote that states my dissatisfaction with where the party is.”

To his credit, Ryan went on Fox News (he sits on the board of the Fox Corporation) to make his case, an environment in which it takes nerve even to criticize Trump, much less offer people a permission structure to abandon him. Fear could be an influence among the Clean Hands folks; some Republican members of Congress reportedly  told  Liz Cheney that they would have voted to impeach Trump, but they literally feared for their safety. (Senator Mitt Romney voted in 2021 to convict Trump. He  told  my colleague McKay Coppins that, after January 6, he spent $5,000 a day on security for himself and his family because of violent threats.)

Members of Congress might use the excuse that their career is at stake, but Ryan isn’t running for anything, and neither are most of the others. Mike Pence has been coy about whom he will choose, other than to   say   that he won’t endorse Trump. But Pence should realize that he is finished in politics and has nothing to lose—beyond the social ostracization that might come from Trump-supporting friends—by taking a stronger stand against the president who didn’t seem to care if a mob strung him up in front of the Capitol.

Arguments from onetime insiders such as Pence and former National Security Adviser Bolton are especially tinny, because they were “in the room” and know how dangerous Trump really is. Bolton   even says so :   On 

Tuesday night, he   told   MSNBC’s Stephanie Ruhle that a second Trump term would be a disaster, especially because it would be staffed by people who—as Bolton admits—would be vetted to ensure they would never try to emulate Pence’s last-minute defense of the Constitution over Trump. Bolton said that an Oval Office full of such loyalists would be “a very dangerous circumstance.”

I am aware of all the arguments people make in favor of protest votes, and about how no one should have to mark the box for a candidate they don’t like. In a normal political year, I might even buy some of them. If you genuinely think that Trump and Biden are exact political isomers of each other—symmetrical in their badness and differing only in style—then not voting for either of them makes sense at least in theory, because you are in effect saying that you don’t think anything will really change either way.

In 2024, however, overwrought comparisons between Trump and Biden make no sense at all, and people like Bolton and Ryan know it. This realization is why, when they go on about Trump, they list chapter and verse about why they can’t support him, but when they get to Biden, they retreat to stock “He’s been a disaster” phrases: They know that to draw too much of an equivalence between Biden and Trump would be inane. Biden is a typical (and relatively moderate center-left) American president, and the Jimmy Clean Hands Republicans know that outside MAGA world, they would sound pusillanimous if they started mumbling about egg prices and diversity training programs while Trump is   threatening to attack the Constitution ,   release insurrectionists from prison , and   use the government to get revenge on his personal enemies .

In the end, the Clean Hands position encourages people to think that their vote really does not matter, other than as a solipsistic expression of personal dissatisfaction. It indulges the narcissistic fantasy that on Election Day, a town crier will say, “1 million votes for Biden, 1 million and one votes for Trump, and one admirable vote for Ronald Reagan. We all want to thank you for your deeply principled stand. And it’s not your fault that Trump won the state.”

Most of these ostensible Trump opponents, of course, will be happy no matter what happens in 2024. If Trump wins, they can push their Jimmy Clean Hands image, noting that no matter how much they hated Trump, they didn’t betray the party. If Trump loses, they can say that they warned their fellow Republicans. Either way, they can float above the fray. Because they care only about their own viability, both options work out: The Clean Hands Republicans believe that they will stay influential, moving and shaking, as if the Republican Party and the conservatism they once knew still existed.

I have sometimes been asked whether I would prefer that people vote for Trump or not vote at all. I think it is every American’s right not to vote, or to write in Marvin the Martian if they so choose. But I find it deeply mendacious for Republican leaders who know exactly how voting works—and especially how protest votes can   affect the Electoral College —to make the simultaneous cases that Trump is completely unfit for office and that the election should not be regarded as a binary choice. The reality is that only one of two men will emerge with the codes to the U.S. nuclear arsenal. These prominent Republicans know better, which suggests to me that what they are really saying is that they hope Trump will win—but that they hope he wins with the votes of others, so that they themselves may avoid the moral stain of voting for a racist, misogynist felon who egged on rioting seditionists.

Personally, I vote as if my vote is the deciding ballot. I know it isn’t, of course, but it focuses my mind and makes me take the civic duty of voting seriously. People have given their lives for my right to stand in that booth, and when American democracy is facing a clear and existential threat, their sacrifice deserves something more than the selfish calculations of the Jimmy Clean Hands caucus.


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Hallux
PhD Principal
1  seeder  Hallux    one month ago

If they only had a heart ...

     If they only had a brain ...

          If they only had courage ...

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
1.1  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Hallux @1    one month ago

good seed that i agree with indeed, as it is a truthful depiction of how the maga affliction has insulted all that this ONCE great country stood for and was about. Ignorance ruling a pathetic denial based base, in the face of reason, is enough to even call treason, to the GOP  that can obviously see, it is their damn duty, to put the damn country above their own power and political aspirations, for they are gutless weak people, as so many truly great men and women gave life and limb for this country to ascend, to watch them blindly follow the miscreant maniacal man child, truly does offend 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2  JBB    one month ago

Most of the biggest MAGA on NT will not admit voting for Trump!

And, take offense at being referred to as the MAGA that they are.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2    one month ago

Probably because of the false labeling of anyone not willing to vote for Biden as Maga!

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.1  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1    one month ago

Are you voting for Trump and do you resent being called MAGA?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.1    one month ago

Anyone who has read my posts already knows I won't be voting for Trump so I suppose it would be monumentally ignorant to call me maga 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.2    one month ago

Posts which are almost entirely anti-D, anti-Biden with precious few anti-R, anti-Trump comments suggest a strong pro-Trump bias.   

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.3    one month ago

gee, I am real sorry you don't seem to care for the content of my posts.

Does what you wrote have a thing to do with who I vote for?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.5  JBB  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.3    one month ago

The other explanation is that many Trump supporters online are felons ineligible to vote or actually even hostile foreign trolls...

That explains their protests about never voting for Trump! 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.5    one month ago

That's funny!

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.7  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.6    one month ago

No, it really is not funny. It is actually a logical deduction based on many comments made on NT over a multiple year history. Again...

Are you voting for Trump? Do you consider "MAGA" an insult?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.8  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.7    one month ago
 it really isn't funny.

You may be right. maybe I should have used hilarious or delusional instead.

And now, for God knows how many times it has been clearly stated, NO, I won't vote Trump.

it is almost like you never read answers to your questions.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.9  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.8    one month ago

Why are you not voting for Trump?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.9    one month ago

Gee, for the same reasons I won't vote for Biden.

They both suck and don't deserve another term.

I have explained this over and over and over.

Do you read the answers?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.9    one month ago

May I guess why you are voting for Biden?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.12  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.10    one month ago

You have often explained your objections to Biden, yet you have never explained what you find equally bad in Trump!

Go on...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.13  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.11    one month ago

No, you may not!

I have already said why I wholeheartedly support President Biden...

original  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.14  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.12    one month ago

you crack me up.

Ok.

here it is.

after all these years, the Biden sycophants have convinced me that Orange Man Bad!

Isn't that enough for you?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.12    one month ago
you find equally bad in Trump!

Never have i ever stated the two clowns were equal. They are not, which has nothing to do with me thinking they both suck.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.16  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.15    one month ago
Never have i ever stated the two clowns were equal. They are not, which has nothing to do with me thinking they both suck.

Thus you recognize it does matter which one of the two becomes PotUS since they are not equal.  

If one comprehends that one of the two is worse for the nation than the other (i.e. they are not equally bad for the nation), it makes sense to use one's vote to help ensure the worst one loses.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.16    one month ago

or, one could and SHOULD recognize both suck and are unfit for office but I am not expecting voters to do one damn thing different and to continue to vote for failure and then bitching about how bad they are.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.18  JBB  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.16    one month ago

original

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.19  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.18    one month ago

Or a Biden supporters 

funny only one of us can claim to not support either loser.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.17    one month ago

You criticize people who choose to use their votes to help direct the nation away from the worse of the only two options.

Yet you pretend that not voting for one of the only two viable options is going to make a difference; that it is a better way to operate.   When was the last time a third party candidate was elected to the presidency?    Do you know that the Libertarian party is over 50 years old and still has yet to deliver a viable candidate for the presidency?

So tell us all how your approach is going to a) make any difference at all in the 2024 election and b) make any difference at all in future elections.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.21  TᵢG  replied to  JBB @2.1.18    one month ago

Exactly.  The key is to not attempt to reason with them but simply expose their irrational views.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
2.1.22  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.17    one month ago

yet one is a patriot and truly wants what is best for AMERICA, while the other runs to escape prosecution and displays an illusion to maximize the confusion about what is real, and what he does spiel, as every thinking American that understands the mistake Trump truly was, has an obligation to see he brings down this once great nation , no further.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.23  JBB  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.21    one month ago

Exactly, because there are no viable third options...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.24  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.20    one month ago
You criticize people who choose to use their votes to help direct the nation away from the worse of the only two options.

I criticize folks for being willing dupes for a political party.

Yet you pretend that not voting for one of the only two viable options is going to make a difference.   

No, that is all you. I have never said my one vote amounts to anything, but it is my vote, and I will be damned to hell before I vote for one of the asshats. I realize millions are content to just go with the flow and vote how the party dictates to them..

 We have been all through this already, why keep asking the same things over and over when you have received answers?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.25  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.19    one month ago

For the 100th time, I wholeheartedly support President Biden!

Why in the fuck would I ever say I do not when I in fact do so?

We know your hatred of Biden. Why won't you vote for Trump?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.26  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.23    one month ago

And never will get to be a viable option as long as folks think and vote like you do.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.27  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.25    one month ago

asked repeatedly, answered repeatedly, won't be answering it yet again. 

Simply look back and read the answers.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
2.1.28  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.24    one month ago
I realize millions are content to just go with the flow and vote how the party dictates to them..

how about actually voting against the definite one threat to our country, by voting Biden ?

Because your chosen method leaves a better chance that a true threat to this country is again elected and will subject it to further extremes that our forefathers, in their worse dreams, could have never envisioned a populace so inept and in ignorance kept, as common sense be swept, away by a party consumed by a lying fool who is out for only one, and he is worthy of a vote by none

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.29  Texan1211  replied to  Igknorantzruls @2.1.22    one month ago

If you think Joe Biden is a good President, vote for him!

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
2.1.30  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.29    one month ago
vote for him!

I most certainly will be, as it should be EVERY AMERICANS DUTY, to stop the wanna be Dick tater tot from EVER being in office again

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.31  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.27    one month ago

Nope, you have never explained your objections to Trump!

You concede they aren't equal, which do you think worse? 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.32  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @2.1.31    one month ago

Trump, unpresidential in demeanor 

Says stupid, childish crap.

calls people names.

I hope you can recognize these are reasons for me not to vote for Trump.

You concede they aren't equal, which do you think worse? 

Concede?

never claimed otherwise!

I don't care who is worse, they BOTH ARE CRAPPY!!!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.33  Texan1211  replied to  Igknorantzruls @2.1.30    one month ago

yeah. yeah, I got it, Orange Man bad!!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.34  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.24    one month ago
I criticize folks for being willing dupes for a political party.

The you do not understand what is going on.   You think that voting for one of the candidates means one simply buys the bullshit of a political party.   You cannot, it seems, comprehend doing what one can to stop the worse choice from assuming the presidency.

You think that not voting for either has some effect yet I have yet to see you explain the effect.  You simply criticize those who do not act as you do.    Yet your approach will not do anything to affect the outcome in 2024 and will do nothing to affect the outcome of future elections.   (Do you think Libertarians who have voted for a Libertarian for the past 50 years have accomplished anything?)    There is no viable third party candidate and voting for Nikki Haley (write-in) is an act of futility.

While I can appreciate someone refusing to vote for either Trump or Biden out of principle, that 'high-road' principle does not apply for those who then criticize people who use their right to vote in an UNEQUAL choice to prevent the worse candidate from assuming the presidency.

There are people on this site who will not vote for either.   Yet they do not arrogantly claim that those who do not do as they do are 'dupes'.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.35  TᵢG  replied to  JBB @2.1.25    one month ago
We know your hatred of Biden. Why won't you vote for Trump?

Exactly.   If one constantly criticizes Biden, almost never criticizes Trump, and (worse) routinely makes excuses for Trump, the claim of not voting for either is not credible.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.36  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.26    one month ago
And never will get to be a viable option as long as folks think and vote like you do.

The Libertarians have been trying for over 50 years.   It is an act of futility to just abstain or vote third party.

The way to get a viable third party is to work years before the election.   Focus on raising money, building a ground force, finding a dynamic, charismatic candidate, and pushing incredibly hard.   Then vote.   People who merely act on election day by not voting, voting for one of many third party candidates, or writing-in their choice accomplish nothing.   It is too little, too late, and entirely diffused. 

I can appreciate someone NOT voting for Trump or Biden because neither deserve their vote.   I get that.   But I have yet to see logic from you or anyone else as to how your approach of acting only on election day with your vote for a non-viable candidate will accomplish anything of value.

To wit, you have no ground to criticize those who choose to use their vote to determine the next PotUS.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.37  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.34    one month ago
The you do not understand what is going on

You are free to think that, even though it is wrong!

There is no need to justify your vote to me 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.38  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.36    one month ago
To wit, you have no ground to criticize those who choose to use their vote to determine the next PotUS.

Sorry, I calls 'em like I sees 'em!

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
2.1.39  George  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.38    one month ago

You do realize that you, me and Donald Trump have something in common?                      
 None of us will be voting for Trump in November.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.40  Texan1211  replied to  George @2.1.39    one month ago

Or Biden!!!

LOL!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.41  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.36    one month ago
But I have yet to see logic from you or anyone else as to how your approach of acting only on election day with your vote for a non-viable candidate will accomplish anything of value.

I have yet to see any logic in knowingly, willfully voting for someone one knows isn't a good choice.

If we as voters always go vote how the parties tell us to, nothing will ever change--there will NEVER be a "viable" candidate outside the Democratic or Republican Party. 

That is certainly no way to improve things.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.42  TᵢG  replied to  George @2.1.39    one month ago

So many Trump defenders who do not plan to vote for Trump ...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.43  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.42    one month ago
So many Trump defenders who do not plan to vote for Trump ...

So many Biden defenders planning to vote for Biden........no matter what.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.44  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.41    one month ago
I have yet to see any logic in knowingly, willfully voting for someone one knows isn't a good choice.

The logic has been presented to you many times.   Your admitted inability to understand the logic of acting to avoid the worst of two possible outcomes is a problem you will have to solve.

If we as voters always go vote how the parties tell us to, nothing will ever change--there will NEVER be a "viable" candidate outside the Democratic or Republican Party. 

If all you ever do is wait for election day and then issue a 'protest' vote (or whatever you would like to call it), nothing will ever change.   I explained to you what is required:

TiG@2.1.36The way to get a viable third party is to work years before the election.   Focus on raising money, building a ground force, finding a dynamic, charismatic candidate, and pushing incredibly hard.   Then vote.   People who merely act on election day by not voting, voting for one of many third party candidates, or writing-in their choice accomplish nothing.   It is too little, too late, and entirely diffused. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.45  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.43    one month ago
So many Biden defenders planning to vote for Biden........no matter what.

A PeeWee response.

If someone is defending Biden, I would expect they would be planning to vote for him.

It would be suspicious if they defended Biden and then claimed that they will not vote for him.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.46  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.44    one month ago
The logic has been presented to you many times. 

Oh, really? I don't think so. And why are you confusing what I CLEARLY stated with me not seeing any logic in what was said?

Talking about third parties is all well and good.

Voting for them is what actually matters.

Talking won't cut the mustard.

It does no good to talk about any other candidates besides a Democrat and a Republican because it has taken us to where we are today---a "choice" between bad and worse. I refuse to be a party to such nonsense.

I don't mind if others vote for one of the asshats, I have no control over their votes.

I just know that good candidates might be dissuaded from even running because of the sentiments you so eloquently expressed regarding third party and whoever you have deemed to not be viable.

If Trump drops out tomorrow will you still be voting for Biden?

After all, there will be no other viable candidates.

And I know how you would hate to waste your vote.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.47  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.45    one month ago
A PeeWee response.

It was entirely what that post deserved.

If someone is defending Biden, I would expect they would be planning to vote for him.

I am not confident that "defending" is understood very well. I see far too many examples of someone accused of "defending" Trump because they aren't on board with the whole Orange Man Bad crapola.

It would be suspicious if they defended Biden and then claimed that they will not vote for him.

I find it much more suspicious and a little disturbing that some folks don't recognize what a defense is.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.48  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.46    one month ago
If Trump drops out tomorrow will you still be voting for Biden?

Depends on who replaces him.   I stated well over a year ago that if in a Biden v. Trump race, if Trump had no realistic chance of winning that I would not vote for either.  


Your preceding bullshit is not going to fool anyone.   Those who always agree with you will just go along and everyone else who pays attention will see that you are dodging at every turn.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.49  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.48    one month ago
Those who always agree with you will just go along and everyone else who pays attention will see that you are dodging at every turn.

Says the person who refused to simply answer yes or no to whether they will vote for Biden if Trump drops out. That isn't inconsistent or anything.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
2.1.50  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.46    one month ago
If Trump drops out tomorrow will you still be voting for Biden

There are so few Republicans who have stood their ground and called out Trump for the violation of this nation that he truly is, i doubt there would be one with a future path forward i could agree with enough to change my vote. Now if Biden were replaced, i could probably easily vote for a younger more representative of our country type candidate who isn't bringing religion and retribution into our politics, such as Trump is and will.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.51  Texan1211  replied to  Igknorantzruls @2.1.50    one month ago

I suppose that is one way to say you'll vote for Biden.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.52  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.49    one month ago

You cannot even understand my answer??   If Trump drops out I need to know who replaces him.    For example, if he is replaced by MTG I would not vote for her.   But I would not vote for Biden either since MTG has no chance of winning.

However, if we see a miracle like Romney replacing Trump, I would vote for him.

Your question does not yield a Yes or No since it is open-ended.

Do better than feeble bullshit retorts.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.53  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.52    one month ago

[]

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
2.1.54  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.53    one month ago

you cannot expect an answer without TiG knowing who the alteraie is, as i too could seriously consider Romney over Biden, but certainly not that MTG thing over Biden

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.55  Texan1211  replied to  Igknorantzruls @2.1.54    one month ago

Seems very contradictory to make a claim that one must know who the opponent is when the claim has been that a vote for Biden is because Trump is worse. Obviously there must be other, legitimate reasons to vote for Biden if he is still considered when Trump is out of the picture. Is it because Biden is the only one such voters consider viable?

A vote for Biden IS a vote FOR Biden.

No two ways around that!

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
2.1.56  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.55    one month ago

Its not contradictory, it is good sense to know who the alternative would be

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.57  Texan1211  replied to  Igknorantzruls @2.1.56    one month ago

Then claiming to vote for Biden because of Trump seems a little hinky since you are considering (and voting) for Biden whether Trump is involved or not.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.58  Texan1211  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.53    one month ago

[]

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.59  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.57    one month ago

This is extremely easy to understand (a child could easily understand the logic) yet you continue with an obnoxious faux obtuseness tactic.

If the GOP nominates MTG instead of Trump, I would vote for Biden as a vote against her.   If the GOP nominates someone who is better than Biden, I will vote for that individual.

I was supporting and fully intending to vote for Haley.   Ring a bell?   Do the math.

In short, I will vote for the better of the two candidates.    Finally, if one of the candidates has no shot and neither of them are fit for office, I will not vote for either of them.  


You, however, admit that there is a difference between Trump and Biden but refuse to use your vote to ensure the better of the two wins.   Instead, you intend to waste your vote thinking that voting third party, etc. in and of itself is going to accomplish something.   The Libertarians have been doing that for over 50 years and have yet to have anyone close to viability for the presidency.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.60  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.59    one month ago

[] we will go back and forth rehashing the same old stuff we have gone over multiple times and will change nothing.

I have told you repeatedly there is no need to justify your Biden vote, nor am I beholden to you to justify my vote.[]

 
 

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