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Billions in taxpayer dollars now go to religious schools via vouchers

  

Category:  Other

Via:  hallux  •  one week ago  •  87 comments

By:   Laura Meckler and Michelle Boorstein - WaPo

Billions in taxpayer dollars now go to religious schools via vouchers
The rapid expansion of state voucher programs follows court decisions that have eroded the separation between church and state.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T




Billions in taxpayer dollars are being used to pay tuition at religious schools throughout the country, as state voucher programs expand dramatically and the line separating public education and religion fades.


School vouchers can be used at almost any private school, but the vast majority of the money is being directed to religious schools, according to a Washington Post examination of the nation’s largest voucher programs.



Vouchers, government money that covers education costs for families outside the public schools, vary by state but offer up to $16,000 per student per year, and in many cases   fully cover the cost of tuition at private schools. In some schools, a large share of the student body is benefiting from a voucher, meaning a significant portion of the school’s funding is coming directly from the government.

In just   five states with expansive programs, more than 700,000 students benefited from vouchers this school year.   (Those same states had a total of about 935,000 private school students in 2021,  the most recent   year for which data are available.) An additional 200,000 were subsidized in the rest of the country, according to tracking by EdChoice, a voucher advocacy group. That suggests a substantial share of about 4.7 million students attending private school nationwide are benefiting from vouchers — a number that is expected to grow.


The programs, popular with conservatives, are rapidly growing in GOP-run states, with a total of 28 states plus D.C. operating some sort of voucher system.   Eight states created or expanded voucher programs last year, and this year,  Alabama,   Georgia  and  Missouri   have approved or expanded voucher-type programs. Some recently enacted plans are just starting to take effect or will be phased in over the next few years.



The growth follows a string of recent victories in the Supreme Court   and state legislatures by religious conservatives who have campaigned to tear down what once were constitutional prohibitions against spending tax money directly on religious education. It also marks a win for the school choice movement, which has spent decades campaigning to let parents use tax money for any school they see fit.



Voucher programs, which vary in their details, have grown particularly large in a half-dozen states. In each of these, participating families have overwhelmingly chosen religious schools,   sometimes using the subsidy for schools   their children were already attending before the programs began.


In Ohio, the GOP legislature last year significantly expanded its voucher program to make almost every student eligible for thousands of dollars to attend private school. As a result, more than 150,000 students are paying tuition with vouchers this year — up from about 61,000 in 2020. About 91 percent of this year’s voucher recipients attend religious schools, the Post analysis found. When vouchers for students with autism and other disabilities — who typically seek specific services — are removed from the list, the portion   going toward religious education rises to 98 percent. (Unless otherwise noted, the Post calculations exclude schools for students with disabilities.)



In Wisconsin, 96 percent of about 55,000 vouchers given this school year went toward religious schools, The Post found. In Indiana, 98 percent of vouchers go to religious schools. (Indiana state data only specifies the number of vouchers for schools with at least 10 recipients.)



In Florida, several programs combine to make every student in the state eligible for vouchers, with more than 400,000 participating this year. At least 82 percent of students attend religious schools, The Post found. Florida is first in the nation in both the number of enrolled students and total cost   of the voucher program — more than $3 billion this year.


And in Arizona, more than 75,000 students are benefiting from the   Empowerment Scholarship Program , which pays for any educational expense.   In 2022-2023, three-fourths of the money — about $229 million — went to 184 vendors. Most of that money went for tuition, 87 percent of   it to religious schools.



Arizona also has an older voucher program, funded by tax credits, which last year subsidized tuition for at least 30,000 students. (The state tracks only the number of scholarships given, and one student can receive multiple scholarships.) Since this program was created in 1998, 19 of the 20 schools that received the most money were religious, according to   a state report.   Those 19 schools received about 96 percent of the $767 million spent between 1998 and 2023 at the top 20 schools.

Pennsylvania also has a large program, but state data does not show which schools families choose. Studies of states with smaller programs such as  one in North Carolina  and another in Illinois show that their payments, like those of larger programs, are concentrated toward religious schools.


The largest conservative state without a program — Texas — moved closer to one Tuesday when several Republicans who had opposed vouchers   were defeated in legislative runoffs   by pro-voucher candidates.



Supporters say these programs give parents more choices and that religious schools are receiving this money because parents see these schools as the right place for their children.



“It’s the parents’ money to use as they see is best,” said Brian Hickey, executive director of the Catholic Conference of Ohio. “We don’t necessarily see it as taxpayer money.”



To critics, the burgeoning number of taxpayer-financed religious students adds up to an unwelcome mingling of government and religion, and a drain on dollars that could support public schools, which unlike private schools are required to serve all students. That occurs both when public school students use vouchers to attend private schools — meaning their public schools lose per-pupil funding — and when the state spends large amounts of money on students whose families would otherwise pay private school tuition themselves.


A coalition of Ohio public school districts is suing the state to halt its program, charging among other things that it depletes resources meant for public schools. “Because public funds are finite, funding EdChoice Program Vouchers … inevitably depletes the resources designated by the legislature for educating Ohio’s public school students,”   the suit alleges.



Vouchers have not led to a gutting of spending on public schools, partly because state budgets have been relatively healthy. But critics fear that cuts are coming as voucher spending rises.



In Arizona, for instance, the cost of universal vouchers   has exceeded   the $624 million budgeted for this year, contributing to a budget hole that lawmakers have not yet said how they will fill. That budget crunch could affect public school spending and certainly makes any increases unlikely at a time when public schools are struggling, said Beth Lewis, director of Save Our Schools Arizona, which opposes vouchers.

“Arizona schools are not able to pay for teacher pay raises or desperately needed resources. You just have teachers begging for copy paper and markers. It’s so bad,” she said. “This is robbing our local public schools and our most vulnerable students.”


The growth of vouchers




The modern voucher movement began in the early 1990s with a program in Milwaukee and spread to other states over the decades. Early programs were limited to students with disabilities, students living in big cities or families with lower incomes, sometimes in struggling public school districts, and billed as a means of giving more choices to children with particular needs. For years, in response to political and constitutional objections, lawmakers also created a roundabout voucher system that required applications to go through taxpayer-supported nonprofit corporations. Those programs, too, were targeted to students who   proponents argued were being poorly served by the public schools.


Now those limits are being dropped.



Eleven states, including Ohio, Arizona, Indiana and Florida, have programs where all or almost all children are eligible for either vouchers, which subsidize or cover tuition, or educational savings accounts, which can be spent on any school-related expense, according to tracking by EdChoice.



The fact that so much of the money is going to religious schools reflects at least in part the dominance of religious institutions among the nation’s constellation of private schools. Nationally, about 77 percent of students attending private school   go to religious schools, according to   federal data.   But   in the states with big voucher programs, the share of money going to religious schools is higher — in some cases, much higher.


Catholic schools have been among the biggest winners. Nationally, more than 1.6 million K-12 students were enrolled in Catholic schools in 2021, the latest   federal data show.



In Ohio, 75,000 Catholic school students participate in   the newly expanded voucher program, said Lincoln Snyder, president of the National Catholic Educational Association. That’s about 63 percent of all Ohio students enrolled in Catholic schools. In Florida, about 60 percent of Catholic school students tap into educational savings accounts, he said.



That has benefited families that would otherwise be paying tuition themselves and also bolstered the schools, which receive money   instead of having to spend funds   on financial aid.



At some Ohio schools, as many as eight in 10 students attend with the help of vouchers. For instance, the boys-only St. Xavier High School in Cincinnati enrolls 1,346 students. Of them, about 1,100 receive taxpayer-funded vouchers, said Gerry Bollman, the school’s chief financial officer.


The state’s expanded voucher program “has opened the door to many families that otherwise wouldn’t have been able to send their sons here,” he said.



This year’s freshman class is almost 15 percent larger than last year’s — growing from about 325 to 370 students, he said. Vouchers   in Ohio — the amount depends on family income — can cover almost half of the school’s $17,350 tuition.



The recent expansion of voucher programs has turned “distant dreams into realities for hundreds of families” who attend Calvary Christian Academy’s three South Florida campuses, Calvary’s president, Jason Rachels, wrote in an email. Of the school’s 3,156 students, about 2,700 use vouchers, a Calvary spokesman wrote.



In an email, Rachels credited the program with ensuring “that an academically rich, Christ-centered education remains within reach for a diverse range of families.”


A fading church-state line




The expansion in voucher programs is part of a broader move in some states toward more government-sponsored   religion inside public schools.



New laws allow schools   to hire chaplains   for counseling or other roles, let teachers pray aloud with students and mandate hanging of “In God We Trust” signs. In West Virginia, a new law allows teachers to discuss alternative theories to evolution. Seven states have passed measures mandating elective courses focused on the Bible, which are supposed to be secular but critics say open the door to proselytizing.



In Oklahoma, the state Supreme Court in April   considered what would be an unprecedented step   toward the mingling of church and state in education, weighing whether the state could directly fund what would be the nation’s first religious charter school.



Like the growth in vouchers, those developments stem in large part from a shift in how the conservative-dominated U.S. Supreme Court, operating along largely ideological lines, has redefined religion’s role in education and public life.

For much of the 20th century, a bipartisan consensus protected a separation of church and state. But in recent decades, advocates who thought separation had gone too far   advanced the opposite argument: Limiting the rights of religious groups in schools and other government settings constitutes discrimination.


That movement got a significant boost in 2020, when the Supreme Court ruled that a Montana scholarship program that funded secular private schools had to finance   religious schools as well — even though the Montana state Constitution barred it.



Two years later, the Supreme Court reinforced the point in   a case from Maine ,   ruling   that a program providing tuition aid   to students in rural areas without public schools could not exclude religious education.



Robert C. Enlow, president of EdChoice, the advocacy group, said he used to hear state lawmakers regularly argue against vouchers by citing legal concerns, but no more.



“The majority of times now we do not hear any of `this is not constitutional,' ” he said. “That’s not an argument they’re using. Not anymore.”


The Oklahoma case could mark the first time a state directly funds a religious public school. While vouchers give public money to students for private schools, allowing the Oklahoma charter school to go ahead would mean the government was paying directly for education infused with religion.



Last year, the state online charter school board approved the proposal for a new school called St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School. It is to be operated by the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Oklahoma City and the Diocese of Tulsa, and leaders say religion will be infused throughout the curriculum.


The school is being challenged by Oklahoma’s Republican   attorney general, who   argued   before the state Supreme Court that its creation violated the separation of church and state. Some justices expressed skepticism that a fully religious school could pass constitutional muster; others suggested there may be little difference between   a religious charter school   and other instances of tax dollars supporting religious entities, including private school vouchers, that have been blessed by the U.S. Supreme Court.



People on both sides of the case say it could ultimately provide the U.S. Supreme Court an opportunity to expand on its recent rulings that widened the use of tax dollars in support of religious education.



Richard Katskee, a professor who directs the Appellate Litigation Clinic at Duke University School of Law, said recent court actions represent a sweeping change in the relationship between government and religion.



“We are, as a society, underwriting religion,” he said. “That’s not what the public schools are supposed to be about.”















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Hallux
PhD Principal
1  seeder  Hallux    one week ago

Not to worry, the Gilead will cut the costs in half.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1  devangelical  replied to  Hallux @1    one week ago

gee, I thought maga scum were concerned about indoctrinating kids with bullshit in schools. I guess not...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @1    one week ago

Yeah, because they won't educate girls. No need for readin' and writin'.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.2    one week ago

home economics, sex ed, babysitting certificate >poof< diploma time...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.2.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @1.2.1    one week ago

Are you sure about the sex ed?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.2.2    one week ago

the thumper version...

on their backs, legs spread, at the husband's command...

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
2  evilone    one week ago

I'm still hoping my these people's grandchildren will have fulfilling lives asking people if they would like fries with their burger and leaving them with a Merry Christmas. They'll be serving people here on work visas and rich foreign tourists complaining about the heat.

 
 
 
Hallux
PhD Principal
2.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  evilone @2    one week ago

That or they'll all get jobs riding dinosaurs in 'young earth' theme parks.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  evilone @2    one week ago

Do you have stats showing public school students outperforming religious school students or just a bias?

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
2.2.1  evilone  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.2    one week ago
Do you have stats showing public school students outperforming religious school students or just a bias?

How can one get stats from an unregulated, for profit industry? If they removed religion and instituted the same testing requirements for all schools then we'll talk. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.2.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  evilone @2.2.1    one week ago

"While every school is different, Catholic schools in general have a high graduation and college placement. In the 2018-2019 school year, Catholic high schools had a graduation rate of 98% and a four-year college attendance rate of 85.2%, per  the National Center for Education Statistics . The national graduation rate for public high school was  86% ." " In 2022, about 45 percent of high school completers immediately enrolled in 4-year institutions and 17 percent immediately enrolled in 2-year institutions."

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
2.2.3  evilone  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.2.2    one week ago

What is the teacher pay and class size of those higher performing schools vs the local public schools? 

While every school is different...

We aren't just talking about Catholic schools when we are talking about voucher programs. In my state of WI, Charter Schools fail at a rate of 55%. They fail because of financial malfeasance, mismanagement, and poor academics all with no transparency.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.4  Tessylo  replied to  evilone @2.2.3    one week ago

Some always defend the indefensible without fail.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.5  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @2.2.4    one week ago

And attack Baltimore every chance they get with their ignorance.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.6  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @2.2.5    one week ago

and Maryland

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3  Kavika     one week ago

Once again Florida and our moosh noosh leader lead the nation. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4  cjcold    one week ago

Don't want my taxes go towards teaching mythology and superstition.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
4.1  bugsy  replied to  cjcold @4    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  cjcold @4    one week ago

Pro Ed Choice:

  • My child isn’t government property.
  • Can’t be trusted with a choice but you trust me with a child.
  • Not your child, not your choice.
  • I demand separation between education and state.
 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.3  Tessylo  replied to  cjcold @4    one week ago

and ignorance and indoctrination and brainwashing - I agree

 
 
 
goose is back
Sophomore Guide
4.4  goose is back  replied to  cjcold @4    one week ago
Don't want my taxes go towards teaching mythology and superstition.

OK........don't send your kid there or are you trying to dictate what other people do?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
5  Gsquared    one week ago
“It’s the parents’ money to use as they see is best,” said Brian Hickey, executive director of the Catholic Conference of Ohio. “We don’t necessarily see it as taxpayer money.”

It is taxpayer money, and it should not be used in this manner. 

“We are, as a society, underwriting religion,” he said. “That’s not what the public schools are supposed to be about.

It should be the parents' responsibility to pay if they choose to take their child out of the public education system.  Certainly, no money beyond what the parents pay in taxes earmarked for education should be paid by the government.  Any balance for tuition should be the parents' responsibility.

All of us pay for the public education system, even if we don't have children.  If we taxpayers also have pay for a child's private or religious school education, then we are, in effect, paying twice.  Some might try to argue that if the public schools have fewer students, the amount of tax money paid into the public school system will be less.  We know that is not now, and never will be, the case. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1  Split Personality  replied to  Gsquared @5    one week ago

The same tools who are dead set against college loan forgiveness because it's a "handout" they didn't earn

are on board with taking taxpayer money in the form of a handout = voucher so their kids can go to a private school with people that look like them and pray like them.

Everyone with a mortgage sees how much taxpayers pay into public schools. My family paid their taxes and sent us to private High schools and private colleges while still paying our public school taxes and we are still paying.

Here in TX, Gov Abbott brags about the $32 Billion in surplus while cutting Property taxes 50% on their way to eventually eliminating them - equating them to paying rent to the government.

Meanwhile the schools and ISD are lining up for decreased state contributions and bankruptcy and Abbott is DESPERATE to start a school voucher program.

It makes no sense

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @5.1    one week ago

I can see the Mullahs lining up to open private schools where inevitably bomb making will be a required course /S

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @5.1    one week ago
The same tools who are dead set against college loan forgiveness because it's a "handout" they didn't earn are on board with taking taxpayer money in the form of a handout = voucher so their kids can go to a private school with people that look like them and pray like them.

The same tools who are dead set against a K-12 voucher for school choice because it's a "handout" they didn't earn are on board with taking taxpayer money in the form of a handout = voucher so their kids can go to any college with people that that like them and party like them.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.1    one week ago

You see Islam as a violent religion. /s

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.4  Drakkonis  replied to  Split Personality @5.1    one week ago
The same tools who are dead set against college loan forgiveness because it's a "handout" they didn't earn are on board with taking taxpayer money in the form of a handout

They aren't the same thing and I'm pretty sure you know it. Further, the "taxpayer money" you claim is a handout is the same one public school kids get. You do realize, don't you, that the parents who prefer to send their children to religious schools also pay taxes intended for school? Why should these parents have to pay for a public school their children do not attend? Why should they not have access to the same benefits their taxes are supposed to provide? Because you don't like religious schools? 

Everyone with a mortgage sees how much taxpayers pay into public schools. My family paid their taxes and sent us to private High schools and private colleges while still paying our public school taxes and we are still paying.

Yes, but all you are doing is describing an unfair system.

Here in TX, Gov Abbott brags about the $32 Billion in surplus while cutting Property taxes 50% on their way to eventually eliminating them - equating them to paying rent to the government.

Because paying rent to the government is exactly what it is. Worse still, it often forces older people or poorer people out of homes they paid off years ago because the taxes on their property keeps going up year after year, especially over this last decade. It is even worse when people with money become interested in a particular area and start living there. The entire system is stacked in favor of people with money. Cities don't want to be full of poor people, they want to be full of rich people. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
5.1.5  Gsquared  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.4    one week ago
Why should these parents have to pay for a public school their children do not attend?

For the same reason people who don't have children have to pay for public schools.  It benefits the community as a whole.

Why should they not have access to the same benefits their taxes are supposed to provide?

They do.  Their children have the same access to public schools as everyone else's children.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.6  Split Personality  replied to  Gsquared @5.1.5    one week ago

I had three choices of High Schools, free Public Schools with a great rep but poor facilities.

Catholic HS , $1,000 a year, one of the most run down schools I haver seen, patrolled by nuns and priests.

Christain private HS $3,000 a year.  Excellent maintenance, looked brand new when it was 20 years old, looks brand new today.  I worked as a janitor every day for 4 years so we could afford it.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.7  Split Personality  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.4    one week ago
Because paying rent to the government is exactly what it is.

Horse droppings. Without it there would be no police or local government, no running water and crappy roads.  When I go to city hall to vote, I know that I helped build and maintain that building, the adjoining Police Department, Library and public park and lake.  Everyone chips in based on their home ownership or the property taxes paid by their apartment building. 

Why should anyone support a religion that they aren't a part of?

Worse still, it often forces older people or poorer people out of homes they paid off years ago because the taxes on their property keeps going up year after year, especially over this last decade

Nonsense, this has been an issue throughout history.

The entire system is stacked in favor of people with money.

and in the past, they paid extra to go to "special" schools as they should have.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.1.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.7    one week ago

I guess people want like to pay the fire department to come put out a fire at their house

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.9  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.1    one week ago

my high school was pretty close to a satanic senior high...

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.10  Split Personality  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.1.8    one week ago

I once worked in Lansdowne PA at the intersection between a standing fire department jurisdiction and a hostile volunteer Fire Department on our side of the intersection.

For months we watched a big old mansion across the street being flipped and when the roof and interior was done they started scraping years and years worth of paint from the exterior, with propane torches.

Needless to say we soon saw smoke and the workers blew us off.  We called both Fire Departments.

The full time Fire department assembled on their side of the Avenue waiting to be invited while the volunteers eventually lost control of the fire and capitulated.  The home suffered biggly.

Sticky business, lol.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.11  Drakkonis  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.7    one week ago
Horse droppings. Without it there would be no police or local government, no running water and crappy roads.

Yes, there would. It would all just be paid for a different way. Also, property taxes as a whole is a different issue than tax money being used for schools that also have a religious component. One is where tax money comes from; the other is where is it going to. Do you understand? 

Why should anyone support a religion that they aren't a part of?

Don't know and don't care, since that isn't what's going on here. Rather, it is families wanting private schooling for their children having the same access to the taxes they pay for education that families who send their kids to public schools have. But even if your mischaracterization wasn't one, why should anyone support secularism when they aren't a part of it? That is, why should parents have to pay taxes that support a secular worldview taught to their children when they don't believe in it? 

Nonsense, this has been an issue throughout history.

Nonsense? How can it be nonsense and still be described as being an "issue"? Or are you simply stating that because it has been an issue throughout history, it's nonsense to do anything about it now? 

So, let me paint you a picture. Two people who make about the same. One buys the best house he can afford in a not very good part of town. Call him Tony. Sarah buys the worst house she can find in a better neighborhood. Both end up paying about $100,000 for their houses, which are about the same in size and features. Over 20 years, Tony's house is now worth about $200,000 and Sarah's is worth about $350,000. 

The problem we have here is that even though neither is actually getting income based on how much their house is worth, one has to pay more in property taxes, even though the one paying more is not going to get more or better service from the city. They aren't going to send extra fire trucks to the one worth more or more police if someone broke into the garage overnight. Not going to send special water through the utilities and all the rest. 

Question: how is it fair to charge one more than the other when having a house that's worth more doesn't actually increase your income? Answer: it's not. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.12  Split Personality  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.11    one week ago
Yes, there would. It would all just be paid for a different way.

What is the difference? Here as almost everywhere we have separate property and school taxes.  I fund both through the value of my property appraisal and all children have an equal opportunity to participate.

If religious people want religious schools, fine, have at it like the Catholics. They've been around for 2,000 years without my tax dollars, just like Hebrew school or homeschooling.

Or are you simply stating that because it has been an issue throughout history, it's nonsense to do anything about it now? 

You made a point of stating that it has been worse in the last decade, that is nonsense.

So, let me paint you a picture.

Please don't, we obviously have different understandings of math.  Home ownership doesn't normally produce income unless it is rented, sublet or sold. When Mary sells her home for more she also recoups some of the higher taxes she has paid.  Simple.

Question: how is it fair to charge one more than the other when having a house that's worth more doesn't actually increase your income? Answer: it's not. 

You're actually espousing Communism and socialism in a capitalistic society?

How kind of you to believe everyone needs a safety net and "fairness" ...

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.13  Drakkonis  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.12    one week ago
If religious people want religious schools, fine, have at it like the Catholics. They've been around for 2,000 years without my tax dollars, just like Hebrew school or homeschooling.

That is what you seem unable to comprehend. They aren't your tax dollars; they are our tax dollars. Or do you think only people who think as you do pay them? 

You made a point of stating that it has been worse in the last decade, that is nonsense.

You now appear to just be saying whatever to avoid the point. 

Please don't, we obviously have different understandings of math.  Home ownership doesn't normally produce income unless it is rented, sublet or sold.

So, your argument is to avoid getting hit with the tax increases I, what? Move out of the house and rent, sublet or sell it? How does that solve the issue, since I now have to buy a new house to live in which perpetuates the problem? Like I said, you're just saying stuff that you think answers the problem. It doesn't. 

When Mary sells her home for more she also recoups some of the higher taxes she has paid.  Simple.

And if Mary is an 80 year old widow who has a limited income and no intention of selling her home that she's lived in the last 60? 

You're actually espousing Communism and socialism in a capitalistic society?

You'll need to spell that out to me because it makes no sense whatsoever. Well, on second thought, don't bother. I can see this is a waste of my time. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.1.14  JBB  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.13    one week ago

Then we must tax all churches equally...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @5.1.14    one week ago
Then we must tax all churches equally.

Do you claim to tax all education facilities equally? 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.16  Drakkonis  replied to  JBB @5.1.14    one week ago
Then we must tax all churches equally...

What's the "if" part? 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.17  Split Personality  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.13    one week ago
I can see this is a waste of my time

ditto. I guess I am becoming more and more conservative in my advanced years and still believe that there is a necessary

and Constitutional separation of church and state.  The use of state collected funds should be unavailable for religious purposes.

“Forcing American taxpayers to fund private religious education—even when those private schools fail to meet education standards, intentionally discriminate against students, or use public funds to promote religious training, worship, and instruction—erodes the foundation of our democracy and harms students,” NEA President Becky Pringle  said Supreme Court Decision Paves Way for Public Funds to Flow to Religious Schools | NEA

This is another result of Trump stacking the SC with conservatives that will walk in lock step with Alito & Thomas.

As Roe v Wade has been reversed, this too can be corrected by a future more moderate and honest group of jurists.

I hope I live long enough to see it, and see democracy saved from this religious roll back of 231 years of Constitutional interpretation.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.18  Split Personality  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.13    one week ago
I can see this is a waste of my time. 

Ditto

Guess I'll skip to the immorality of usury and mortgages because we really do rent our home from the lenders...

And if Mary is an 80 year old widow who has a limited income and no intention of selling her home that she's lived in the last 60? 

She had better have seen this coming since the Middle Ages and had investments or some other income to fall back on.  Limited income is her responsibility, why can't you understand that?

My Mother and her sister are in their 90's, very well set up financially with SS and pensions and one just sold a Seasonal property on the beach for 20 times what it was purchased for.

Two women who paid attention in the Catholic High School they convinced their father to pay extra for instead of going to the free public HS.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.19  Drakkonis  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.18    one week ago
Ditto

Ditto? But you're going to waste your time anyway? I would respond but what you've written in the last two posts shows you have no intention of actually discussing the issue. Get back to me if you have anything serious to say. Or better yet, answer this question with an actual argument and I will respond:

How is a school run by a religious organization a violation of the Constitution and which part? 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.20  Split Personality  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.19    6 days ago

It was a separation of Church and State issue for roughly 241 years, it still should be.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.21  Drakkonis  replied to  Split Personality @5.1.20    6 days ago

So, you have no argument. Thought so. Bye. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.22  Split Personality  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.21    6 days ago

Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.2  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @5    one week ago

So true Gsquared.  I don't appreciate these private and religious schools stealing my money.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.2.1  JBB  replied to  Tessylo @5.2    one week ago

The Churches want to get their greedy hands onto our government's money, but they damn sure do not want our government getting any of theirs!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @5.2.1    one week ago
The Churches want to get their greedy hands onto our government's money,

It’s tax payer money, not government’s and private education isn’t different than public education in that regard.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6  Drinker of the Wry    one week ago

Here in the Nations Capital, school vouchers are worth up to $10,713 for K–8 students and $16,070 for students in grades 9–12 for 2023–24.  Vouchers first pay for tuition, with any leftover funds available for certain qualified fees that schools may require as well as for summer school.

Low income families are happy to have an opportunity a schools that provide a better fit for their children.

They are school Pro Choice.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7  Vic Eldred    one week ago

"Urban black America favors school vouchers, but its leaders don't."

Opinion | Why Blacks Support Vouchers - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

It is easy to understand. Public schools have failed them.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
8  Greg Jones    one week ago

I thought liberals supported "choice" in all things.

Many minority and poor kids have benefitted from vouchers and school choice.

Public schools for the most part have persistently failed to get the job done and give our young people a decent education

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1  Tessylo  replied to  Greg Jones @8    one week ago

My tax dollars shouldn't be funding private or religious schools.  They shouldn't get to double dip.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2  evilone  replied to  Greg Jones @8    one week ago
I thought liberals supported "choice" in all things.

Liberals are not against private schools. They are against voucher programs for a variety of reasons. I would no more support taxpayer supported abortions than I would taxpayer supported private religious schools.

Public schools for the most part have persistently failed to get the job done and give our young people a decent education

Would private schools get the job done at the same staffing and operating levels as public schools? 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  evilone @8.2    one week ago

Probably not, but some of those so-called private schools don't require certified teachers and I have doubts about their curriculum. I don't think they're designed to put forth the best and brightest

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
8.2.2  George  replied to  evilone @8.2    one week ago
Would private schools get the job done at the same staffing and operating levels as public schools? 

It's not the schools job to employ people who have failed up into admin positions, It's their job to educate children. 

They are against voucher programs for a variety of reasons. I would no more support taxpayer supported abortions than I would taxpayer supported private religious schools.

So you are all for keeping poor kids trapped in failing schools and no hope of a decent education?

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
8.2.3  George  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.1    one week ago
I don't think they're designed to put forth the best and brightest

Comparing Student Success in Public and Private Schools

Research has consistently shown that private school students tend to perform better on standardized tests. The National Assessment of Educational Progress, which is often referred to as “the nation’s report card,” assesses both public and private school students in subjects such as math, reading, science and writing. The   most recent NAEP data   shows what other research has found: Private school students score better in almost all subjects.

For example, eighth grade private school students averaged about 20 points higher than public school or charter students on the   NAEP reading test   in 2022. Fourth grade private school students had nearly the same advantage in average scores.

On college entry tests such as the  SAT ,  NAIS found   that students in private schools consistently outperformed their public school peers in all subject areas.

Private School vs. Public School (usnews.com)

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.4  evilone  replied to  George @8.2.2    one week ago
So you are all for keeping poor kids trapped in failing schools and no hope of a decent education?

No. It's my opinion we should be making public schools better. The main reason private schools out perform public is class size and teacher training. Too many people are shitting on public school teachers instead of making them better.

It's not the schools job to employ people who have failed up into admin positions, It's their job to educate children. 

For profit schools have had their issues from sex and cheating scandals to embezzling administrators. So don't tell me they are perfect. If they had to deal with the same class sizes and the same resources as public schools they would have the same issues.  

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
8.2.5  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  evilone @8.2.4    one week ago
The main reason private schools out perform public is class size and teacher training.

Could also the fact that parents are going to insist their children do well because they are paying out the nose for the education have a lot to do with it?

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.6  evilone  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.1    one week ago
Probably not, but some of those so-called private schools don't require certified teachers and I have doubts about their curriculum. I don't think they're designed to put forth the best and brightest

Charter schools fail at an alarming rate. Private religious schools employ an unsustainable business model that can't compete without public money to prop it up. 

That said the old system of local money supporting local schools is also unsustainable. We need to set teaching standards and fund our schools accordingly with proper staffing and resources. It's easier said than done, but it's where the conversation has to start.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.7  evilone  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.5    one week ago
Could also the fact that parents are going to insist their children do well because they are paying out the nose for the education have a lot to do with it?

How are they paying out the nose with public funded vouchers?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.8  Tessylo  replied to  evilone @8.2.7    one week ago

With my tax dollars at that!

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
8.2.9  George  replied to  evilone @8.2.4    one week ago
Too many people are shitting on public school teachers instead of making them better.

Nobody is shitting on the school teachers, we ae shitting on the Unions and administration.  And exactly how do you propose we make them better? It is a proven fact that more money won't do it so what is your solution?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
8.2.10  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  evilone @8.2.7    one week ago

We are talking the performance now not when vouchers MAY happen

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.11  Tessylo  replied to  evilone @8.2.7    one week ago

They're not.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.12  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.10    one week ago

Vouchers are happening NOW.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
8.2.13  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Tessylo @8.2.12    one week ago

But the performance being analyzed is from the past. Please keep up

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
8.2.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @8.2.8    one week ago

Exactly, competition provides a better product in most cases except education.  No Pro Choice there.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.15  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.13    one week ago

What else do they have to analyze?  Keep up

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.16  evilone  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.2.14    one week ago
Exactly, competition provides a better product in most cases except education. 

An unfair competition because one size has to accommodate 20 children per class where the other can have upwards of triple in falling down buildings and outdated textbooks all with lower pay. 

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.17  evilone  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.10    one week ago
We are talking the performance now not when vouchers MAY happen

As I posted in another thread here above - Charter Schools here in WI have failed at a rate of 55%. How's that for performance?

Student performance increases when students get more individualized attention. Private schools have smaller class sizes and more affluent parents can pay for individual tutoring. If we really want children to succeed in public schools then this is what we need to fund in public schools.

No state should have a cash surplus while a school needs repairs, resources and teachers.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.18  Tessylo  replied to  evilone @8.2.17    one week ago

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.19  evilone  replied to  George @8.2.9    one week ago
Nobody is shitting on the school teachers,

Considering the other article posted today, along with the multitude of articles about 'woke' and anti-LGBTQA+ or whatever boogieman the populist right wants to make up about public schools this week YOU must be correct.... /s

And exactly how do you propose we make them better? It is a proven fact that more money won't do it so what is your solution?

Hmmm... Interesting take. If money isn't the issue then why are private schools so expensive? How do private schools afford to pay for better teachers? How to private schools afford to upkeep their facilities and offer all those extra-curricular activities that aren't available in all public schools? Hint... it isn't prayer.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
8.2.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  evilone @8.2.16    one week ago
An unfair competition because one size has to accommodate 20 children per class where the other can have upwards of triple in falling down buildings and outdated textbooks all with lower pay. 

In school year 2022-23 NYC ($35,914) spent the most per pupil , followed by Washington DS Schools ($27,425), San Francisco ($23,654), Atlanta School District in Georgia ($22,882), Los Angeles Unified in California ($21,940), and Detroit School District in Michigan ($21,771).

Utah has the most crowded schools, with an average class size of 26 students Maine the least , with an average class size of only 17 students.  The national average class size in the US is 24 students as of 2022.

Where did you get 60 students?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
8.2.21  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.2.20    one week ago

When I was in elementary school, every class I had had no less than 26 students and one even had 31. How times change

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
8.2.22  George  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @8.2.21    one week ago

We spend an average of 18,614 per student, in a class size of 25 that works out to 465,325 per year for that classroom. lets say that the average teaches salary is 70'000. where does the other 395 G's per student go?  

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
8.2.23  evilone  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.2.20    one week ago

Okay. My mistake on the triple size. The average classroom size in private schools are 10 to 15 students. Half the average for public schools. Something that some private schools use in recruiting and marketing material.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
8.2.24  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  George @8.2.22    one week ago
where does the other 395 G's per student go?

Pockets for garbage for 1000 Ken

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
8.2.25  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  evilone @8.2.23    one week ago
Half the average for public schools.

So you’re saying that size matters, in this case smaller is better.  Smaller classes at less cost per student, imagine that.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
8.2.26  Ronin2  replied to  evilone @8.2.6    one week ago

Like public schools don't fail. Oh, that is right- tax payer dollars don't let them fail. They just become crappier and crappier as more money is thrown at them.

In just four years, according to newly released enrollment figures , the municipally operated portion of the New York City public school system has lost more than 136,000 students, or roughly the same population as the entire city of Pasadena, California. And yet not only has the annual Department of Education (DOE) budget increased over that time—by $4 billion , no less—the schools are set to go on an expensive hiring spree , thanks to a new statewide class-reduction law.

If that sounds like government dysfunction bordering on the openly malfeasant, well, welcome to New York. Sadly for the rest of you people, the pathologies and policies and tactics on display in the five boroughs are being emulated in big cities all over the country.

The four-year, 14 percent reduction in enrollment, coupled with the budget hike, means that per-student spending in city-administered schools has grown by 22 percent, to more than $31,000, according to the DOE . Yet that's almost certainly an undercount.

The Citizens Budget Commission, a nonpartisan nonprofit watchdog , in April put the estimated per-student cost this fall at $38,000 , with more growth projected on the way: "more than $41,000 in fiscal year 2026," and then "adding unbudgeted yet likely collective bargaining costs, per-student spending would reach nearly $44,000 in fiscal year 2026."

A key driver of these imminent cost increases is a five-year class-size reduction mandate signed into law last year by Democratic Gov. Kathy Hochul. Beginning this fall, 20 percent of NYC-operated classes must stick to 20 kids from kindergarten through third grade, 23 students from fourth to eighth, and 25 for high schoolers. The New York City Independent Budget Office   in July estimated that full compliance (when applied to 2021–22 budget/enrollment numbers) would require hiring 17,700 new teachers, and an additional annual budgetary bump of between $1.6 billion and $1.9 billion.

Democrats love to just throw more money at problems- fixing them isn't on their agenda.

That is the reason parents want school choice. So their kids have the same opportunities as richer families; and aren't stuck in the Democrat controlled public school sink hole.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Guide
9  Hal A. Lujah    one week ago

I went to a private religious high school.  So many hours of religion class, instead of electives or arts education.  This is one reason why religious people are so fucking boring.  What a huge waste of public funds.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1  Tessylo  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @9    one week ago

And Theft of our monies as well.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @9.1    one week ago

Exactly, [] the [] politicians are stealing your money:

["As recent test scores raise concerns over Baltimore City Public Schools, a program that gives families more school choice is in jeopardy. The move could impact thousands of low-income students who will no longer have an alternative to their public school.]

[“This is more than just about an education,” said Nefertari Lee, a Baltimore City mother, who earlier this month testified in Annapolis about a program called BOOST. “He has gone onto college and is thriving.”]

[BOOST is a state program that offers scholarships, similar to vouchers, to students from low-income families, allowing them to attend parochial and other nonpublic schools.]

[] According to state data, since the program was created in 2016, it’s awarded about 20,000 scholarships.

The average household income of a recipient is about $35,000. Students from the lowest-income families are given priority"

[Also please provide links where quoting articles, thanks SP]

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
9.1.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Tessylo @9.1    6 days ago
And Theft of our monies as well.

You mean like sending billions to Ukraine?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
10  Jeremy Retired in NC    one week ago
Billions In Taxpayer Dollars Now Go To Religious Schools Via Vouchers

At least it's being used in the US.  Far better than it being sent to other countries like Ukraine.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
11  Trout Giggles    one week ago

The seed photo is Sarah Cuntabee*** Sanders signing some piece of legislation regarding school vouchers and the LEARNS Act.

We've have medical cannabis in this state for about 6? years. They're generating a lot of revenue. I don't know where that money is going but it should be going to education....teacher pay, books, infrastructure, and school lunches

***CB..I'm on my way to the front office

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
11.1  evilone  replied to  Trout Giggles @11    one week ago
I don't know where that money is going but it should be going to education....

It's going to $9K lecterns and lawyers to defend it.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
11.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  evilone @11.1    one week ago

jrSmiley_103_smiley_image.jpg

I knew that....

 
 

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