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How does this end? With Hamas holding firm and fighting back in Gaza, Israel faces only bad options | AP News

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  kavika  •  3 weeks ago  •  243 comments

By:   AP News

How does this end? With Hamas holding firm and fighting back in Gaza, Israel faces only bad options | AP News
Hamas is still putting up a fight after seven brutal months of war with Israel, regrouping in some of the hardest-hit areas in northern Gaza and resuming rocket attacks into nearby Israeli communities.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


The Israeli military said Thursday that its troops continued operating in Gaza's southern city of Rafah, in central Gaza and in Jabaliya.

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JERUSALEM (AP) — Diminished but not deterred, Hamas is still putting up a fight after seven brutal months of war with Israel, regrouping in some of the hardest-hit areas in northern Gaza and resuming rocket attacks into nearby Israeli communities.

Israel initially made tactical advances against Hamas after a devastating aerial bombardment paved the way for its ground troops. But those early gains have given way to a grinding struggle against an adaptable insurgency — and a growing feeling among many Israelis that their military faces only bad options, drawing comparisons with U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This was the subtext of a rebellion in recent days by two members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's three-man War Cabinet — Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and Benny Gantz, Netanyahu's main political rival — who demanded that he come up with detailed postwar plans.

They supported Israel's retaliation for Hamas' Oct. 7 attack, including one of the heaviest bombing campaigns in recent history, ground operations that obliterated entire neighborhoods and border restrictions that the U.N.'s World Food Program says pushed parts of the territory into famine.

READ MORE ?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.apnews.com%2F7e%2Fcb%2Fe6d98bdd5c58f908a6650c88d9d3%2Fd4e18d3ba19542d781ea166f7c76678f The Latest | Israel's 2-day raid in West Bank kills 12 Palestinians?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.apnews.com%2Fa8%2F6f%2F51bf6b80b0b30e9ae128913965bc%2Fe334ef92c82545d28cbe685862857126 Missile splashes into the Red Sea, causing no damage in latest suspected Yemen Houthi rebel attack?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.apnews.com%2F88%2Fab%2F47960df67d12828360aef07df434%2F46ca60402f3a4ab99178670c1a6351c9 Leaders of Northwestern, UCLA and Rutgers to testify before Congress on campus protests

But now the two retired generals fear a prolonged, costly re-occupation of Gaza, from which Israel withdrew soldiers and settlers in 2005. They are also opposed to a withdrawal that would leave Hamas in control or lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Instead, they have put forth alternatives that many Israelis see as wildly unrealistic. Hamas, meanwhile, has proposed its own postwar plan.

Here's a look at four ways this war might end.

FULL-SCALE MILITARY OCCUPATION


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FILE - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu attends the weekly cabinet meeting in the prime minister's office in Jerusalem, June 25, 2023. (Abir Sultan/Pool Photo via AP, File)

Netanyahu has promised a "total victory" that would remove Hamas from power, dismantle its military capabilities and return the scores of hostages it still holds from the attack that triggered the war.

He has said victory could come within weeks if Israel launches a full-scale invasion of Rafah, which Israel portrays as the last Hamas stronghold.

Amir Avivi, a retired Israeli general and former deputy commander of the Gaza division, says that's only the beginning. He said Israel would need to remain in control to prevent Hamas from regrouping.

"If you don't drain the swamp, you cannot deal with the mosquitoes. And drain the swamp means a complete change in the education system, and dealing with local leadership and not with a terror organization," he said. "This is a generational process. It's not going to happen in a day."

Far-right members of Netanyahu's governing coalition, who hold the key to his remaining in power, have called for permanent occupation, "voluntary emigration" of large numbers of Palestinians to anywhere that will have them, and rebuilding of Jewish settlements in Gaza.

Most Israelis are opposed, pointing to the immense costs of stationing thousands of troops in the territory that is home to 2.3 million Palestinians. As an occupying power, Israel would likely be held responsible for providing health, education and other services. It's unclear to what extent international donors would step in to fund reconstruction amid ongoing hostilities.

There's also no guarantee such an occupation would eliminate Hamas.

Israel was in full control of Gaza when Hamas was established in the late 1980s. Israel's 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon coincided with the rise of Hezbollah, and Israeli troops routinely battle militants in the West Bank, which it has controlled since 1967.

A LIGHTER OCCUPATION, AIDED BY 'UNICORNS'


?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.apnews.com%2F64%2F46%2F9f4da7725fc4bd5e5417cc1d5e75%2Fbf2ba7525f54491fa85a2d54947f1db7

FILE - Palestinians line up for a meal in Rafah, Gaza Strip, Thursday, Dec. 21, 2023. The United Nations said Tuesday, May 21, 2024, it suspended food distribution in the southern Gaza city of Rafah due to lack of supplies and insecurity. It also said no aid trucks entered in the past two days via a floating pier set up by the U.S. for sea deliveries. (AP Photo/Fatima Shbair, File)

Netanyahu has said Israel will maintain security control over Gaza but delegate civilian administration to local Palestinians unaffiliated with Hamas or the Western-backed Palestinian Authority, which governs parts of the occupied West Bank. He has suggested that Arab and other countries assist with governance and rebuilding.

But so far, none have shown interest.

No Palestinians are known to have offered to cooperate with the Israeli military, perhaps because Hamas has said they would be treated as collaborators, a veiled death threat.

Efforts to reach out to Palestinian businessmen and powerful families "have ended in catastrophe," says Michael Milshtein, an Israeli analyst of Palestinian affairs at Tel Aviv University and a former military intelligence officer.

He says Israelis seeking such allies are searching for "unicorns" — something that does not exist.

Arab states have also roundly rejected this scenario — even the United Arab Emirates, which is one of the few to formally recognize Israel and has close ties with it.

"The UAE refuses to be involved in any plan aimed at providing cover for the Israeli presence in the Gaza Strip," Foreign Minister Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan said this month.

A GRAND BARGAIN


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FILE - Benny Gantz, a key member of Israel's War Cabinet and the top political rival of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, leaves a meeting in the office of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., at the Capitol in Washington, on March 4, 2024. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite, File)

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FILE - Israel Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant makes a joint statement with his U.S. counterpart, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, after their meeting about Israel's military operation in Gaza, in Tel Aviv, Israel, on Dec. 18, 2023. (AP Photo/Maya Alleruzzo, File)

Instead, Arab states have coalesced around a U.S. proposal aimed at resolving the decades-old conflict and transforming the Middle East.

Under this plan, a reformed Palestinian Authority would govern Gaza with the assistance of Arab and Muslim nations, including Saudi Arabia, which would normalize relations with Israel in return for a U.S. defense pact and help in building a civilian nuclear program.

But U.S. and Saudi officials say that hinges on Israel committing to a credible path to eventual Palestinian statehood.

Netanyahu has ruled out such a scenario — as have Gallant and Gantz — saying it would reward Hamas and result in a militant-run state on Israel's borders.

Palestinians say ending Israel's decades-long occupation and creating a fully independent state in Gaza, the West Bank and east Jerusalem — territories Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war — is the only way to end the cycle of bloodshed.

Hamas has said it would accept a two-state solution on at least an interim basis, but its political program still calls for the "full liberation of Palestine," including what is now Israel. Hamas has also said it must be part of any postwar settlement.

A DEAL WITH HAMAS


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Relatives and supporters of Israeli hostages held by Hamas in Gaza hold photos of their loved ones during a performance calling for their return in Tel Aviv, Israel, Thursday, May 23, 2024. (AP Photo/Oded Balilty)

Hamas has proposed a very different grand bargain — one that, ironically enough, might be more palatable to Israelis than the U.S.-Saudi deal.

The militant group has proposed a phased agreement in which it would release all of the hostages in return for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners — including senior militants — as well as the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza, a lengthy cease-fire and reconstruction.

That would almost certainly leave Hamas in control of Gaza and potentially allow it to rebuild its military capabilities. Hamas might even claim victory, despite the extensive death and destruction suffered by Palestinian civilians since Oct. 7.

But thousands of Israeli protesters have taken to the streets in recent weeks calling on their leaders to take such a deal, because it's probably the only way to get the hostages back.

They accuse Netanyahu of standing in the way of such an agreement because it could lead his far-right allies to bring down his government, potentially ending his political career and exposing him to prosecution on corruption charges.

Supporters of such a deal say there would be other benefits for Israel, beyond freeing the hostages.

The low-intensity conflict with Lebanon's Hezbollah would likely die down as regional tensions ease, allowing tens of thousands of people on both sides of the border to return to their homes. Israel could finally reckon with the security failures that led to Oct. 7.

And it could prepare for another inevitable round of fighting.

Milshtein says Israel should adopt Hamas' concept of a "hudna" — a prolonged period of strategic calm.

"Hudna doesn't mean a peace agreement," he said. "It's a cease-fire that you will exploit in order to make yourself stronger and then to attack and surprise your enemy." ___

Follow AP's war coverage at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war


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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Kavika     3 weeks ago

Heavy fighting in the north of Gaza, again. Increased fighting with Hezbollah and the West Bank is exploding. 

Did Egypt sabotage the peace process?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Kavika @1    3 weeks ago
Did Egypt sabotage the peace process?

I believe Hamas did that on Oct. 7.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @1.1    3 weeks ago

Egypt changed terms of Gaza ceasefire deal presented to Hamas, surprising negotiators, sources say

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

israel should demand proof of living hostages within 24 hours, or start executing imprisoned militants, top down, until they get that proof. then negotiate the release of 1 hostage for each prisoner or an illegal settlement abandoned intact in the west bank. if the radical religious settlers resist eviction, let the sane members of the IDF take them out feet first. annex a strip of southern lebanon connecting the west bank to the sea and deport all israeli ultra nationalists and their leadership to their new gaza homeland, creating a 3 state solution, solving the bibi problem, and the unsustainable financial burden on israel of religious welfare for those unwilling to work or fight for their country.

failing that solution, all the religious radical trash in that region have been exterminating each other for 3000+ years. we need to help all of them become much more efficient at it, after evacuating the innocent. I'm good with whatever it takes to eliminate radicals from all 3 abrahamic religions until the endless cycle of revenge and retribution is finished, no matter how many religious radicals end up in hypocrite paradise.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.1.3  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @1.1.2    3 weeks ago

Nah, recents history shows non believers whacking and stacking bodies at a much greater volume.    Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc

Plenty of intolerance to go around …..

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.4  Sean Treacy  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.3    3 weeks ago
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc

Atheists in the 20th century killed more than in  all the european wars of religion combined.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.4    3 weeks ago

Yep, many of my friends on the left have a real issue with that fact.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1.6  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Kavika @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

Doesn't change what I said.  They had their chance at peace.  They blew it on Oct. 7.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.7  devangelical  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.4    3 weeks ago
Atheists in the 20th century killed more than in  all the european wars of religion combined. 

whenever you're ready to talk about the genocidal effects the mackerel snapper church had on the new world...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.8  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.3    3 weeks ago

got anything relevant from this century?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @1.1.6    3 weeks ago

"their chance at peace"?  Are you kidding?  Hamas doesn't want peace other than that PIECE that is the WHOLE of The Land of Israel.  Their constitution demands it, they've made it clear they demand it, their Koran directs them to kill the Jews, their Imams tell them 'The Day of Judgment' will not come until they fight the Jews and kill them.  They will not give up, because if they give up they will not be martyrs earning the privilege of deflowering their 72 virgins in The Garden of Allah.  Don't presume that those monsters think the way you do or any civilized beings do.  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.10  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.9    3 weeks ago
Hamas doesn't want peace other than that PIECE that is the WHOLE of The Land of Israel

ultra nationalists in israel don't want peace, other than that next piece of stolen palestinian land to build another illegal settlement. let the religious radicals on both sides kill each other off, like they have for centuries, after all the innocent that wish to live in peace are evacuated. this war serves only one purpose, to keep the radical religious relics of the past in power and wealth, at the expense of those with no place left to go, on both sides.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1.11  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.9    3 weeks ago
Hamas doesn't want peace other than that PIECE that is the WHOLE of The Land of Israel.

That is what I was getting at. Now that Israel is decimating Hamas fighters they are crying for peace (again).  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.2  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @1    3 weeks ago
Did Egypt sabotage the peace process?

No-- if anything its to their advantage to have peace. 

Why? Because they are a poor country and rely on tourism &Suez Canal tolls for income. Continued fighting may hurt tourism. However ships are avoiding the canal because the Houthis are firing on ships entering the Red Sea (which is the route to the canal).

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2  Ronin2    3 weeks ago

How does this end?

With a lot more dead Palestinian civilians in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel was ramping up expansion of settlements and expulsion of Palestinians in the West Bank well before Oct 7. It has increased the pace after Oct 7; and that will not change regardless of how Gaza plays out.

.

Settler attacks on Palestinians   increased   in 2023 to their highest level since the UN began recording this data in 2006. This was the case even before the Hamas-led attacks on October 7 that killed about 1,100 people inside Israel.

Following October 7, the Israeli military called up 5,500 settlers who are Israeli army reservists, including some with criminal records of violence against Palestinians, and assigned them to West Bank “regional defense” battalions. The authorities distributed 7,000 guns to battalion members and others, including “ civilian security squads ” established in settlements,   according to Haaretz , and   Israeli rights groups . Media   reported   that settlers left leaflets and sent threats on social media to Palestinians after October 7, such as warnings to “ flee to Jordan ” or be “exterminate[d],” and that “ the day of revenge is coming .”

The UN has   recorded   more than 700 settler attacks between October 7 and April 3, with soldiers in uniform present in nearly half of the attacks. Attacks since October 7 have   displaced   over 1,200 people, including 600 children, from rural herding communities. At least 17 Palestinians were killed and 400 wounded, while Palestinians have killed 7 settlers in the West Bank since October 7, the UN   reported .

Israel's government has advanced plans for more than 3,400 new homes in settlements in the occupied West Bank.

About 70% of the homes will be built in Maale Adumim, east of Jerusalem, with the rest in nearby Kedar and Efrat, south of Bethlehem.

A minister has said the construction is a response to a deadly Palestinian attack near Maale Adumim two weeks ago.

The Palestinian Authority condemned the plans, which are reportedly the first to be approved since June.

Israel has built about 160 settlements housing some 700,000 Jews since it occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem - land the Palestinians want as part of a future state - in the 1967 Middle East war.

The vast majority of the international community considers the settlements illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the Higher Planning Committee of the Civil Administration - the body that implements Israeli government policy in the West Bank - had advanced plans for the development of 3,476 settler homes on Wednesday - with 2,452 in Maale Adumim, 694 in Efrat and 330 in Kedar.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who oversees the Civil Administration, said following the meeting that a total of 18,515 homes in West Bank settlements had now been approved over the past year.

As for Gaza, it really doesn't matter what Israel does. They have already fomented the next generation of Gazan terrorists with their current actions. It is only a matter of how long it takes for the next Hamas (or maybe even Hamas itself) to gain enough strength to again attack Israel directly. 

Wash, rinse, and repeat. The stupid cycle of violence in the world's most dysfunctional sand box will continue without end.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @2    3 weeks ago

the US state department should hold a news conference in jerusalem and announce that the USN has leased all the land those illegal settlements are on, from the rightful palestinian owners, for ordinance testing to begin on 7/4/24.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @2.1    3 weeks ago

I bet the Air Force would like a piece of that action

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.1    3 weeks ago

I thought you said the USAF was all thumped out with religious brass.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @2.1.2    3 weeks ago

They still like to blow shit up

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.4  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.3    3 weeks ago

well, since they have cruise missiles, okay...

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
2.1.5  fineline  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.3    3 weeks ago

Like any good Christian. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.6  devangelical  replied to  fineline @2.1.5    3 weeks ago

those 10 commandments are for the unforgiven...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @2    3 weeks ago
How does this end?

jerusalem turns into the world's biggest radioactive punch bowl and all 3 abrahamic religion's radicals standing around with their dicks in their hands for a half a million years during a long nuclear winter. oh wait, all 3 religious sects will become groceries...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.3  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Ronin2 @2    3 weeks ago

That is true, but lets put the blame where it belongs and that is with Evangelical Christians here in the US. They have a very unholy allegiance with the Orthodox fanatics in Israel. You might want to read this:

Assisting Jewish migration to Israel was once the proud preserve of Jewish diaspora organisations but is being increasingly “outsourced” to Evangelical Christian Zionist groups,   Haaretz   has reported.

The cost of getting new Jewish migrants to Israel is being covered by deeply devout Christian groups as Jewish philanthropy for Israel continues to dry up because of disaffection with the Zionist state around the world.

The migration of Jews to Israel — known as Aliyah — is one of the basics tenets of Zionism. For evangelical Christians, the “ingathering of the exiles” in the Holy Land is a precursor to the return of Jesus, Armageddon — when all non-Christians, including Jews, will be wiped out — and the Rapture of the Last Days. Christian Zionists’ funding of Aliyah not only dovetails with their political agenda, but is also done with the hope of hastening a biblical prophecy.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.1  devangelical  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.3    3 weeks ago

thank you for that very astute comment. the number of scam xtian charities in the US attempting to fast track armageddon by enabling and encouraging religious unrest in their support of israeli ultra nationalists in the middle east is jaw dropping. this is not lost on those that are their victims in the middle east, and all americans are then seen by them as accomplices. case in point, do you remember the repetitive charity commercials run a few years ago about supporting russian WWII holocaust survivors? it raised millions until it was exposed as bullshit when somebody did the math on their ages. now the scam is starving palestinian children in gaza, that will never see one US dollar that was allegedly raised for them by fake xtian charities.

Armageddon — when all non-Christians, including Jews, will be wiped out.

thumpers don't want muslims to kill the jews, because they think that god given privilege of conversion or death belongs to them.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.3.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @2.3.1    3 weeks ago
thumpers don't want muslims to kill the jews, because they think that god given privilege of conversion or death belongs to them.

Oh, that's the reason they want to save Jews.  It might be nice if American Jews wanted to save Jews.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.3  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.2    3 weeks ago
they want to save Jews

whenever you're ready to talk about the catholic religion's history with jews, I'm ready...

with regards to religious karma coming due, the hypocritical mackerel snapper church is top of the hit parade.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2.3.4  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.2    3 weeks ago
It might be nice if American Jews wanted to save Jews.

That is a totally bigoted, ignorant and incredibly arrogant comment.  What would really be nice is if people who aren't Jewish didn't presume to tell Jews what to do regarding Israel or anything else for that matter.

 
 
 
GregTx
Professor Guide
2.3.5  GregTx  replied to  Gsquared @2.3.4    3 weeks ago

No doubt. I'm sure there are alot of those raised Christians who hold a similar opinion.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2.3.6  Gsquared  replied to  GregTx @2.3.5    3 weeks ago

There are.  I know many, assuming you're referring to Christians who also believe that people who aren't Jewish should not presume to tell Jews what to do.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.3.7  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gsquared @2.3.4    3 weeks ago
What would really be nice is if people who aren't Jewish didn't presume to tell Jews what to do regarding Israel or anything else for that matter.

So, we can talk about Evangelical Christians but not American Jews who put their wokeism over their religion. I think you should think about the way Christians are talked about by non-Christians before you call anyone else bigoted.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.8  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.7    3 weeks ago
American Jews who put their wokeism over their religion

you should think about the way Christians are talked about by non-Christians

in true maga form, way to double down with another willfully ignorant comment.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2.3.9  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.7    3 weeks ago

That is a breathtakingly arrogant, bigoted and ignorant comment. 

American Jews who put their wokeism over their religion

That comment is a vile slur but it will certainly play well in the Unified Reich.

Furthermore, "wokeism" as used by reactionary propagandists is a hoax.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.2    3 weeks ago

I think that there are others on this site who are more knowledgeable about how Jews think than you do, Vic, so if I were you I would not make assumptions about how Jews think or feel about issues such as Israel or Muslims or which political party is more attuned to their preferences.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.3.11  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.10    3 weeks ago

I think I do know.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.12  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.11    3 weeks ago

Then what you have to know is that, same as any other religion or ethnic group or race Jews do not all fit into a single mold.  They run the gambit from the ultra-Orthodox Haradim with the black hats or fur hats and earlocks running down their cheeks to self-loathing Jews like Noam Chomsky and I think Bernie Sanders and those who call themselves Christian Jews i.e. Jews for Jesus, and a whole spectrum in between, and their political beliefs and loyalties are every bit as varied.  I couldn't possibly guess what each sect's, each movement's, in fact each individual's, political leanings are today - but you do?  Although before Trump became POTUS I think it might have been possible to believe that Jews were mostly liberal, considered Democrats to be the most liberal and therefore generally supported them - I've seen polls that suggested that.  But I think things started to change when Trump was POTUS, and may well have changed even more with Biden's moves during the present Israel-Hamas war.  But without a survey taken by a reputable source, who knows where it all stands today?  But you DO know?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.13  Krishna  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.2    3 weeks ago
It might be nice if American Jews wanted to save Jews.

Why do you think all the American Jews want Israel destroyed?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.14  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.3.13    3 weeks ago
It might be nice if American Jews wanted to save Jews.
Why do you think all the American Jews want Israel destroyed?

In the interests of accuracy, let me re-phrase that:

Why, in your expert opinion-- do you believe that?

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
2.3.15  MrFrost  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.2    3 weeks ago

512

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.16  devangelical  replied to  MrFrost @2.3.15    3 weeks ago

like peas in a pod ...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.17  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.12    2 weeks ago
I couldn't possibly guess what each sect's, each movement's, in fact each individual's, political leanings are today - but you do? 

 but you do? 

Well, consider this: maybe he's just much smarter, much more intelligent, than the rest of us? jrSmiley_26_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.3.17    2 weeks ago

R-C.69aff9490908b6f227888abf026acf27?rik=kMeqpOhLx7KM1Q&riu=http%3a%2f%2fcdn.c.photoshelter.com%2fimg-get%2fI0000cc__hlAQPRs%2fs%2f600%2f600%2fSwami.jpg&ehk=RReBkNEMh9WfzMB1NCzV8i44eGkj%2bpAY4X6EP3wLEJo%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3  Greg Jones    3 weeks ago

So, the consensus hereabouts seems to be that Israel should just declare victory and leave. Let the UN handle it.

That sure makes a lot of sense!  

s/

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1  Krishna  replied to  Greg Jones @3    3 weeks ago
, the consensus hereabouts seems to be

Actually that does seem to be the consensus amongst some people-- but not the consensus amongst others!

Which means its not actually a consensus-- but rather an assumption on your part. (Not that there's anything wrong with that... jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif )

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4  Sparty On    3 weeks ago

The only way this works is a two state solution.    But both states must be secure from events like October 7th.    Otherwise it won’t work.    Never has with specters like that hanging over peoples heads.

Follow the money and choke out the folks funding Hamas and Hezbollah.     This will need to be the entire world to be effective.    That said, Hamas must be completely wiped out unless they honestly change their goals.    Hezbollah is not far behind …..

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1  Ronin2  replied to  Sparty On @4    3 weeks ago

So how do you plan on handling the IDF and Israeli settlers that control the vast majority of the West Bank now? So long as they are in place there can be no two state solution. Once you solve that problem there is still the issue of getting Israel to remove their people from East Jerusalem- which it has already taken as it's capital.

I agree whole heartedly that Hamas and Hezbollah need to be choked off from money. That will end their organizations faster than all of the military hardware Israel has. That still won't solve the problems of those financing Israel and their settlement expansion; and the corrupt PA which is allowing it.

IMO the situation is already past the point of no return. Sooner or later Israel will force the Palestinians out of West Bank, Gaza, and even Israel proper. Which will change the fighting dynamics to Syria, Lebanon, and possibly Jordan and Egypt. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    3 weeks ago

It’s nice to share …..

Seriously, removing the threat of being murdered in your sleep goes a long way.    I like to think that cooler heads could still prevail.    But we gotta stop the main actors funding this shit, specifically Iran.

As long as they’re pulling the strings ….. no peace in our time.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.1    3 weeks ago
we gotta stop the main actors funding this shit, specifically Iran

how much is the US total yearly expenditures for foreign aid and armaments to israel?

how much does israel spend on expanding, supporting, and defending illegal settlements in the west bank?

how much of the israeli budget fully supports a significant population segment of religious ultra nationalists that do not work, but study the torah full time, while breeding like rabbits, and have exempted themselves from mandatory military service?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    3 weeks ago
The only way this works is a two state solution.

3 state. evict all the israeli religious extremists into gaza so that muslim religious extremists can focus on them. the haredim won't fight, so it shouldn't take too long, unless they can get their wives to work and join a militia...  /s

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.4  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @4.1.2    3 weeks ago

You tell me.    While you’re at maybe you can tell me how many Jewish babies Hamas has cooked in ovens lately.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.5  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.4    3 weeks ago

maybe you can tell me how many palestinian kids starved or buried under the rubble of bombed buildings are worth in comparison. there is plenty of blame to be shared on both sides.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
4.1.6  afrayedknot  replied to  devangelical @4.1.5    3 weeks ago

“..,how many palestinian kids starved or buried under the rubble of bombed buildings are worth…”

As long as the players are willing to accept the collateral consequences, which seems tragically likely, the carnage will continue as it has for millennia. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.7  devangelical  replied to  afrayedknot @4.1.6    3 weeks ago

speaking as a US taxpayer, we don't need to be funding it. I'm in favor of a 2 state solution, and until that happens, all foreign aid should stop.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.8  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @4.1.5    3 weeks ago

Maybe you can tell me who voted for Hamas in their last election almost two decades ago …..

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.9  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @4.1.7    3 weeks ago
I'm in favor of a 2 state solution

There have been two states for a while.

While there is a horrendous war going on,the fact is that there is a self governing Palestinian state-- in Gaza!

Before Hamas broke a long standing cease fire (Oct 7) who ruled Gaza? Hamas-- Israel didn't rule Gaza-- there wasn't a single Jew in the entire place.

Hamas was an independent, self governing state (yes, Gaza was a dictatorship-- but the dictators were Palestinians (Hamas).

Self governing doesn't mean only democracies-- the fact is that the duly elected leaders of the Palestinians-- Hamas-- were Palestinians-- who were were ruling Gaza!

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1.10  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @4.1.9    3 weeks ago
There have been two states for a while.

Please point Palestine out on any current Western map? Please show where Palestine is seated at the UN? Please show the Palestinian embassy in the US or any country for that matter? Please show the US embassy, or any country embassy for that matter, in Palestine?

Palestinians don't have a state, period. They have Gaza, which Israel has had a complete blockade on since 2007. They have the West Bank- or what is left of it- where the PA is supposed to be in control; but really it is the IDF and settlers running the show. Nothing gets in or out of the West Bank w/o Israel's authorization. Neither control their own air, space, borders, or even water rights. You need all of those things to qualify as a state.

While there is a horrendous war going on,the fact is that there is a self governing Palestinian state-- in Gaza!

Before Hamas broke a long standing cease fire (Oct 7) who ruled Gaza? Hamas-- Israel didn't rule Gaza-- there wasn't a single Jew in the entire place.

Hamas was an independent, self governing state (yes, Gaza was a dictatorship-- but the dictators were Palestinians (Hamas).

You think Hamas is still in control of Gaza? I would laugh if it wasn't so pitiful- as many other Americans still believe the same damn thing! Israel is the controlling power in Gaza. Always has been. Always will be. Doesn't matter if there are IDF and settlers there or not. Who controls Gaza's borders? Israel- and Egypt who does whatever Israel says regarding what gets into and out of Gaza through the border crossings they operate. Who controls Gaza's air space? Israel, as Gaza doesn't even have an airport- much the less an air force of any type. Who controls the waters off Gaza? Again Israel- nothing gets in or out of Gazan waters w/o Israel's permission. Remember all of the aid ships that were raided in the waters off Gaza by Israel? Remember the Gazan fishermen that were shot at by the Israeli navy for having the temerity to try and fish too far out in their own waters? Remember the families at the beach in Gaza that were shelled by the Israeli Navy? Who controls the water and power in Gaza? Again that is Israel- proven by the very fact they shut off both after Oct 7. Gaza has it's own water source; which Israel freely taps- Israel forces Gazans (or more accurately the rest of the world) to pay for Israeli run desalination plants to provide water for Gaza. Hamas is in control. They are the tyrannical wardens of the largest open air prison in the world. They were put in charge by Israel and Bush Jr. 

Self governing doesn't mean only democracies-- the fact is that the duly elected leaders of the Palestinians-- Hamas-- were Palestinians-- who were were ruling Gaza!

Last election was in 2006. By the way Hamas didn't win majority control. They were the minority party of what was supposed to be a PA lead collation government. Hamas didn't want to play so killed off and expelled the PA from Gaza. Israel gleefully allowed that to happen. They prevented the PA from moving more security and weapons into Gaza to maintain control. Israel loves the Palestinians killing each other off. And the PA, Hamas, and Hezbollah are more than eager to do so. 

You have probably heard this before; but the vast majority of Gazans were even born since the last election in 2006. To state that Gazans elected in Hamas is a fallacy. Iran, and Israel, kept Hamas in power since 2006. Now Israel is seeking a non PA alternative to run the largest open air prison in the world. Funny how no (non PA) Palestinians are stepping forward. You think they would be eager to take over Gaza as Israel's proxy. Israel being a kind, benevolent, and caring democracy and all. The only true Democracy in the ME, or at least that is what we keep getting told.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.11  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.10    2 weeks ago
The only true Democracy in the ME, or at least that is what we keep getting told.

Different people will tell you different things!

So here's the secret: find a source that tells you what you want to hear-- and keep spreading that POV!

As to your claim that the only thing we hear is that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east I googled it-- and found something different:

According to The Economist Group's Democracy Index 2020 study,   Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East , while Tunisia is the only democracy in North Africa 1 The Middle Eastern and North African countries with the highest scores in various freedom indices are Israel, Tunisia, Turkey, Lebanon, Morocco, Jordan and Kuwait 1 Of the five countries that have become a democracy at some point, three have maintained their status as democracies (Iraq, Lebanon, and Tunisia) 2 .

Of course I could've looked further down the page, and found other sources that would tell me something different!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.12  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.10    2 weeks ago
Who controls Gaza's borders? Israel- and Egypt who does whatever Israel says regarding what gets into and out of Gaza through the border crossings they operate.

and Egypt who does whatever Israel says

Tell that to the Egyptians-- I'm sure they'd love to hear that!

/sarc

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.2  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @4    3 weeks ago
Follow the money and choke out the folks funding Hamas

buh-bye bibi...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.3  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @4    3 weeks ago
Follow the money and choke out the folks funding Hamas and Hezbollah.

Iran.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.3.1  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @4.3    3 weeks ago

Exactly

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.4  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @4    3 weeks ago
The only way this works is a two state solution.

There are already two states.

1. The Jewish state (Israel).

2. The Palestinian state (i.e. the area where Palestinians govern it-- i.e. Gaza*).

Yes there's a war going on-- and yes there are "enemy troops" (Israelis) at war in Gaza. But when there were nio Israelis in Gaza, who was governing it? Palestinians! (hamas)

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5  Tacos!    3 weeks ago
Hamas is still putting up a fight

But somehow, it’s all Israel’s fault that the war continues.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.1  fineline  replied to  Tacos! @5    3 weeks ago

Certainly not all Israel's fault, it is the fault of ALL their false religions. Remember the three issues that plague us all, Religion, Bigotry and Greed.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.1    3 weeks ago
Certainly not all Israel's fault, it is the fault of ALL their false religions.

Exactly, atheists are consciousness objectors.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.2  Tacos!  replied to  fineline @5.1    3 weeks ago

This war isn’t about religion for Israel. Israel is happy to live in peace with neighboring Muslim countries. Muslims serve in the Israeli Knesset. This war is about religion for Hamas, but for Israel, it’s about real estate and the right to exist.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.2    3 weeks ago
it’s about real estate

then they should buy it instead of stealing it...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.4  Krishna  replied to  fineline @5.1    3 weeks ago

Certainly not all Israel's fault, it is the fault of ALL their false religions.

Israelis have a strong identity-- as Israelis. But religion? It varies. Some have a strong identity as Jews (the religion). many other don't. 

I had thopught they were all ultra-religious-- like the ultra orthodox, dressed head to toe in black. The first time I visited the country I was surprised-- the majority of the people I met were not religious at all. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.5  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.2    3 weeks ago
Muslims serve in the Israeli Knesset.

Twenty percent of Israeli citizens are Muslims. But unlike Muslims living in most Muslim countries, Israeli's Muslim citizens get to vote for elected leaders and have rights they wouldn't have in most Arab countries. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.6  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.2    3 weeks ago
it’s about real estate and the right to exist.

I would disagree. Itsabout the right to exist. But many Israelis don't care about having more land.

The current right-wing government does-- but centrist and leftist Israelis don't like their government. They would rather give u the West bank if they could have peace. 

They've occupied much more Arab territory in the past, and gave it up for peace.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.7  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @5.1.3    3 weeks ago
it’s about real estate
then they should buy it instead of stealing it...

Many people would agree with you-- compared to the Muslim world-- Israel has too much land!

The Arab world shown in Yellow, Israel in Purple.

256

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.1.7    3 weeks ago
The Arab world shown in Yellow, Israel in Purple.

Actually the size of Israel isn't accurate-- its actually smaller than the Purple area in that map. (because that map shows Gaza as part of Israel which it is not-- Gaza is a self-governing Moslem country).

Also it shows the West bank as part of Israel-- when actually its status is disputed.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.1.9  Ronin2  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.2    3 weeks ago
Israel is happy to live in peace with neighboring Muslim countries. 

Lebanon and Syria would disagree I am sure. Better avoid asking Jordan and Egypt as well or you might get an earful you really don't want to hear.

Muslims serve in the Israeli Knesset.

.

They have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens, but many continue to face discrimination and socioeconomic disadvantages.

Do they have the same rights and opportunities as other Israelis?

Israel’s declaration of independence recognizes the equality of all the country’s residents, Arabs included, but equality is not explicitly enshrined in   Israel’s Basic Laws , the closest thing it has to a constitution. Some rights groups argue that dozens of laws   indirectly or directly discriminate   against Arabs.

Israel’s establishment as an explicitly Jewish state is a primary point of contention, with many of the state’s critics arguing that this by nature casts non-Jews as second-class citizens with fewer rights. The 1950   Law of Return , for example, grants all Jews, as well as their children, grandchildren, and spouses, the right to move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. Non-Jews do not have these rights. Palestinians and their descendants have no legal right to return to the lands their families held before being displaced in 1948 or 1967.

Another major difference is that, unlike the vast majority of Jewish Israelis, Arab citizens do not have to serve in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), the country’s military. They can still enlist, and some do, especially Druze and Circassians, but some are stigmatized in their communities as a result. Yet, not enlisting can significantly disadvantage them both socially and economically. For instance, many Israelis make important and lasting personal connections with their fellow citizens through the IDF, and they also receive many financial benefits, such as education assistance and discounted permits for building homes and owning land.

Statistics   from IDI show   that Arab citizens of Israel continue to face structural disadvantages. For example, poorly funded schools in their localities contribute to their attaining lower levels of education and their reduced employment prospects and earning power compared to Israeli Jews.   More than half   of the country’s Arab families were considered poor in 2020, compared to 40 percent of Jewish families. Socioeconomic disparities between Israel’s Jewish and Arab citizens are   less pronounced   in mixed cities, though a government audit in July 2022   found Arabs had less access   to municipal services in those cities.

Arab citizens’ concerns about inequality mounted after Israel passed its  nation-state law  in 2018. Among other provisions, the law removed Arabic as an official language but gave it a “special status,” declared Israel the nation-state of the Jewish people, and said the Jewish people have a unique “right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel.” The language left many Arabs feeling that their rights as citizens were being undermined.

https://fathomjournal.org/why-dont-the-arabs-of-israel-vote-more/#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20Abraham%20Fund%20report,to%20influence%20national%20decision%2Dmaking .

However, the Abraham Fund report shows that the majority of Israel’s Arab citizens who abstain from voting do so not because of a desire to remove themselves from Israel’s democratic life but because they believe that they are powerless to influence national decision-making. The study shows that only 17 per cent of Arab citizens are boycotting elections on ideological grounds.

But thank you for promoting the Israeli myth that Arabs in Israel have any real power.

but for Israel, it’s about real estate and the right to exist.

Really, it is about Israel's right to exist? Are you one of those that believe Israel's existence is really threatened by Hamas and Hezbollah? How much land has Hamas/Hezbollah managed to take and hold from Israel? How many tanks, planes, and military vessels does either have? Hamas took it's best shot on Oct 7th. It was a complete surprise attack. Any real military would have pressed it's advantage and been rolling to Jerusalem. Hamas isn't a real military, not even close. It doesn't have the weaponry, supplies and distribution, or even command structure to take and hold ground- much the less extend an attack. Neither does Hezbollah. Both are terrorist organizations that Israeli actions have had a direct hand in forming and bringing to power. Try asking the Lebanese and Gazans if Hezbollah and Hamas are real militaries and not just terrorists that kill those that don't agree with them.

I would have more sympathy for Israel; but with the way they have treated Palestinians (especially in the West Bank)- they don't deserve it. I have zero sympathy for Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran- none of them care about the Palestinians- only continuing a fight they will never win. They don't care about the collateral damage/destruction/death their actions bring. Maybe one day the PA, which is more concerned about the continued flow of money from the US/Israel to it's coffers, than actually protecting the people under their rule will get what they deserve as well.

The fact that the US is funding Israel and the PA in this never ending shit show in the most dysfunctional sand box on the planet is sickening.  

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.1.10  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.1.7    3 weeks ago

How telling that you think all Arabs are the same people.

Do you think all Asians are the same people?

Do you think all Africans are the same people?

Do you think all Europeans are the same people? (By the way half of Israeli Jews are of European decent- not Arab).

Do you think all South Americans, Central Americans, Americans, and Canadians are the same people?

I mean the ME is tiny as compared to the combined Americas. 

Just pick the Palestinians up and plop them anywhere else in the Arab world. It won't cause any problems what-so-ever./S

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
5.1.11  Greg Jones  replied to  devangelical @5.1.3    3 weeks ago

It's been the homeland of the Jews for 3,000 years. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.12  devangelical  replied to  Greg Jones @5.1.11    3 weeks ago

lots of natives have lost their homelands thru conquest, without any mention in some book of hearsay fables...

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.13  Tacos!  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1.9    3 weeks ago
Lebanon and Syria would disagree I am sure. Better avoid asking Jordan and Egypt as well or you might get an earful you really don't want to hear.

Those countries have a history of refusing to recognize Israel and making war on Israel. Some of them still support anti-Israeli terrorist organizations within their borders. By treaty, though, Egypt and Jordan have recognized Israel.


They have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens, but many continue to face discrimination and socioeconomic disadvantages.

You will find this anywhere in the world. But the crucial point is non-Jews in Israel are not being exterminated and Israel didn’t go to war with Hamas because they’re Muslims. It is literally the stated goal of Hamas to wipe Israel - and Jews generally - from the face of the Earth. It’s all over the Hamas Covenant.

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised. 
..

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. 

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep." 
..

The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.

..

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. 
..

In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. 
..

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it

It amazes me that anyone is confused by this.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.14  Krishna  replied to  fineline @5.1    3 weeks ago
Certainly not all Israel's fault, it is the fault of ALL their false religions.

Just curious-- which of their religions do you consider to be "false'-- and which ones (or which one) do you consider to be the true religion?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.15  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @5.1.6    3 weeks ago

Ah, the complexities of the ME, beyond many Westerners to grasp the shaded areas of the history. A while back I did a short series on the different peoples that live in Israel (many are citizens of Israel). Of course the Palestinians, the Druze, the Circassians, and the Bedouins. Each is unique with their culture religion and language, citizens of Israel, and all serve in the IDF. The history of the Bedouins with Israel goes back to the founding of Israel when the Bedouins fought alongside and for Israel. In fact there is a monument, ''The Garden of the Broken Hearts'' on one of the hills of Galilee that honors the Bedouins who fought and died for Israel. They took on the most dangerous of assignments deep behind enemy lines, many did not return. 

beduins-_20220320-120625_1.jpg

The largest town in Israel that is predominantly Bedouin is Rahat, by law all town/cities are to have bomb shelters there are very very few in Rahat, much to the consternation of the Bedouins who look at it as they are 2nd class citizens of Israel. 

Within the Jewish community are many people of Africa, there are Moroccan Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Somali Jews and from the Balkans, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Macedonian Jews and a very large Kurdish Jewish community.

And yes, there is a two-tier system among the Jewish people, European Jews, African and Balkan Jews. 

At the World Jewish Council in the early 1900 there was a proposal to establish a new Jewish state in Africa, the Congo I believe it was and the Brits were strong supporters of this although it never came to be. 

Having spent some time in Israel, Jordan and Lebanon over the years it gave me a very good look at the trials and tribulations of the area. I did spend quite a bit of time with the Bedouin people, fascinating their history goes back 30,000 years in one of the most hostile environments on earth. 

It is was well worth the time to study the history of the ME and surrounding areas. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.16  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.13    3 weeks ago

Ever heard of antisemitism?  It shows up in different ways. and support of those who support EVEN ONE FUCKING BIT those who attack or even just hate the Jews are IMO no better than Eichmann. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.17  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @5.1.15    3 weeks ago
, by law all town/cities are to have bomb shelters there are very very few in Rahat,

Why do you think the government allows Jews to build bomb shelters-- but forbids the Bedouin from building them?

That seems unfair!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.1.17    3 weeks ago

Perhaps the number of shelters is based on the numbers of the local population.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.19  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @5.1.17    3 weeks ago

There are numerous articles on it, this is just one and yes, it is unfair. As the saying going all men are created equal, some more equal than others.

Israel's Arab community pleads for bomb shelters as war rages

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.20  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1.18    3 weeks ago
Perhaps the number of shelters is based on the numbers of the local population.

No, sadly that is not the case, Buzz. Read the link I gave Krish. There are thousands of school children that have no protection when the rockets start to fall.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.21  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @5.1.20    3 weeks ago

I have to agree with the sentiment indicated in that linked article.  The Israeli government needs to do more to provide equal services to ALL its citizens, or it gets damn hard to argue that Israel is not an apartheid state.  However, if a bunch of Bedouins go out and pitch their tents somewhere in the desert wilderness they cannot expect the government to go looking for them to connect services to their encampment.  Perhaps a little better organization is needed and locations that are more easily connectable. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.22  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1.21    3 weeks ago

It's the Israeli government that decides if they are legit towns or not, but with cities like Rahat, there is no excuse not to have the bomb shelters which are required by Israeli law. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.23  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @5.1.22    3 weeks ago

Agreed.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.1.24  Ronin2  replied to  Greg Jones @5.1.11    3 weeks ago

Even when it wasn't?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.1.25  Ronin2  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.13    3 weeks ago
Those countries have a history of refusing to recognize Israel and making war on Israel. 

Guess you never heard it takes two to fight? 

According to the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project ( ACLED ), Israel, Hezbollah and other armed groups in Lebanon exchanged at least 4,733 attacks across the border from October 7, 2023 to March 15, 2024. Israel conducted about 83 percent of these attacks, totalling 3,952 incidents, while Hezbollah and other armed groups were responsible for 781 attacks.

Over the past 15 years, 22,111 Israeli military aircraft have violated Lebanese airspace, a report has found.

According to the site,   Air Pressure , 8,231 fighter jets and 13,102 Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) have conducted incursions into Lebanon’s skies since 2007. With the average time in the airspace lasting 4 hours and 35 minutes, the combined duration of all of those flights amounts to 3,098 days, or eight and a half years’ worth of airspace violations.

The site managed to collect and report the data after sourcing it from 243 letters uploaded to the UN’s digital library between the years 2006 to 2021, which contained all the radar information such as the time, duration, type and trajectory of each aircraft violation.

Those letters were written by Lebanon’s permanent representative to the UN and were addressed to the UN Security Council (UNSC), and the site’s team were only able to compile all of the necessary data into a report after manually analysing and transcribing each of them individually.

“The UN Security Council, and United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon have been monitoring and recording these violations, and have had clear access and capacity to do this work themselves. Instead, by storing the data in a piecemeal and uncoordinated fashion, these institutions have obfuscated the scale of these crimes”,   Air Pressure   stated.

According to the report, the primary reason for the airspace violations – especially by the UAVs – was that of “mass indiscriminate surveillance”, in which the Lebanese population’s phone calls and text messages are accessed, and their movements and homes are photographed.

The Syrian Golan is a region in southwest Syria which was occupied on June 5, 1967 by Israeli forces. The Golan's overall land mass is 1,860 square kilometers, which is approximately 1 percent of Syria's total area, about 1,500 square kilometers remains under Israeli occupation. Before this Israeli occupation, the Golan was home to over 140,000 Syrians, most of whom were driven out of their homeland and into Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) status. Till this day, almost 40 years later, the Syrian inhabitants of the Golan are still unable to return to their homes, towns and cities. Today these Syrians exceed 500,000 people. Some Syrians remained in the Occupied Syrian Golan and continue to live in small villages amounting to approximately 20,000 Syrians. Most of the Syrian cities, towns and villages in the Golan were destroyed by Israeli occupation forces, who in turn have built over 40 illegal settlements despite all international condemnation. Israel continues not only to occupy the Syrian Golan but to also destroy its ancient ruins and geopolitical atmosphere for the sole purpose of cleansing the Golan of its Syrian people and their history.         

In October 1973 during the October War, Syria attempted to liberate its Golan from Israeli occupation. Syria succeeded after the disengagement agreements to regain a strip of territory that included the main city and capital of the Golan, Quneitra. When Quneitraian citizens returned to their liberated homes, they were traumatized and stunned to find that every home, building, Mosque and Church in the city had been deliberately demolished by Israeli bulldozers and dynamite. Even the city's graves had been dug and robbed by the Israelis, all just days before the Israeli withdrawal, as documented by the BBC and others. The city remains destroyed as living proof of Israeli aggression towards civilians. On December 14, 1981, Israel annexed, the Occupied Syrian Golan; the international community responded with Security Council Resolution 497 (1981), which unanimously called this move, “null and void” and not one country has legitimized it. Since then, every year the U.N. passes General Assembly resolution titled “The Occupied Syrian Golan” which reaffirms the illegality of the Israeli occupation and annexation.

In 1991, peace talks between Syria and Israel started at the Madrid Conference in which the return of the Syrian Golan was a central topic. However, negotiations came to a dead-end due to Israel 's refusal to withdraw completely from the Syrian Golan. To this day, Israel refuses to implement U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973); which call for the complete withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied in 1967, including the Occupied Syrian Golan; as well as Security Council Resolution 479 (1981), which confirms the illegality of Israel 's annexation of the Golan. Syrians continue to wait for the murderous and illegal occupation of their land to come to an end. Syrian diplomacy has launched many calls in order to resume peace talks. Syrian President, Bashar Al-Assad, has sent several messages in this regard. However, the provocative visit of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem , which sparked the 2000 Palestinian Uprising, the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, along with Israeli aggression against the Palestinians and Lebanon in 2006 has widened the gap and complicated the picture.

Oh, as for Jordan and Egypt. Their recognition of Israel was bought and paid for by the US taxpayer. A little fact Israeli apologists tend to leave out. Also Egypt didn't want war with Israel- but Israel had it's sights on Egyptian lands.

From 1947 onward, Egypt sought to avoid wars with Israel. Many compromise peace offers were rejected by Israel, mainly because of its expansionist objectives in Egyptian-held territory in the Negev, Gaza, and the Sinai peninsula. Had Israel accepted the Egyptian overtures, almost certainly the 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 wars would have been averted. The Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty of 1979, which has held up ever since, was made possible when Israel agreed to withdraw all Egyptian territory it had conquered in the 1967 and 1973 wars. Similarly, from 1947 onward Jordan sought to avoid war with Israel, and after 1967, King Hussein offered to reach a formal peace treaty, provided Israel return the West Bank which it had conquered in the 1967 war. Israel refused, but in the early1990s, Hussein decided to renounce Jordanian sovereignty over the West Bank, resulting in the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty of 1994.

What a great neighbor Israel is. I can't understand why they aren't more beloved.

You will find this anywhere in the world. 

Really? Come again?

But the crucial point is non-Jews in Israel are not being exterminated and Israel didn’t go to war with Hamas  because  they’re Muslims.

So your very, very, very low bar for Israel is that it isn't directly committing genocide? Apartheid is OK, but you draw the line at genocide. No Israel is an equal opportunity apartheid country. If you aren't Jewish and you are on land it deems theirs they are at war with you. Hence the complete blockade on Gaza since 2007; the massive illegal settlements in the Golan Heights and West Bank; and Israeli settlers given free reign to kill any Palestinians they want.

It is literally the stated goal of Hamas to wipe Israel - and Jews generally - from the face of the Earth. It’s all over the Hamas Covenant.

Is as the occupying force in charge of Gaza, West Bank, and Golan Heights has an obligation to protect civilians. To put it simply they are no. Not all Gazans are Hamas- no matter how Israeli apologists want to spin it. Israel is responsible for the safety of Gazan civilians.

It amazes me that anyone is confused by this.

It amazes me that anyone doesn't know international law; or thinks Israel isn't subject to it.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”. 

The situation in the OPT is primarily governed by two international legal regimes: international humanitarian law (including the rules of the law of occupation) and international human rights law. International criminal law is also relevant as some serious violations may constitute war crimes.

STATUS OF SETTLEMENTS UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW

Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”. 

The extensive appropriation of land and the appropriation and destruction of property required to build and expand settlements also breach other rules of international humanitarian law. Under the Hague Regulations of 1907, the public property of the occupied population (such as lands, forests and agricultural estates) is subject to the laws of usufruct. This means that an occupying state is only allowed a very limited use of this property. This limitation is derived from the notion that occupation is temporary, the core idea of the law of occupation. In the words of the International Committee of the Red Cross, the occupying power “has a duty to ensure the protection, security, and welfare of the people living under occupation and to guarantee that they can live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with their own laws, culture, and traditions.”

The Hague Regulations prohibit the confiscation of private property. The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the destruction of private or state property, “except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations”.

As the occupier, Israel is therefore forbidden from using state land and natural resources for purposes other than military or security needs or for the benefit of the local population. The unlawful appropriation of property by an occupying power amounts to “pillage”, which is prohibited by both the Hague Regulations and Fourth Geneva Convention and is a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and many national laws.

Following the attacks, Israel launched relentless bombardments from air, land and sea across the Gaza Strip, targeting and destroying civilian objects protected under International Humanitarian Law (IHL) in a manner widely characterized as collective punishment. Air raids have targeted residential buildings, hospitals, mosques, water and sanitation facilities, telecommunications towers, bakeries, schools and refugee and displacement camps.

On 9 October Israel imposed a complete siege of Gaza, resulting in acute shortages of water, food and medicines that threatened the survival of 2.3 million Palestinians and created a dire humanitarian crisis. On 11 October Israel cut off the electricity supply to Gaza, resulting in an ongoing blackout and contributing to the collapse of hospitals and water and sanitation services. Approximately 1.7 million Palestinians are currently internally displaced in Gaza. A group of UN Special Procedures have issued multiple warnings regarding a risk of genocide against the Palestinian people in light of dehumanizing statements made by Israeli officials and the accompanying bombardments and imposition of a total siege, while the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) warned on 14 October that Palestinians in Gaza are in grave danger of ethnic cleansing.

Since then, Israeli military operations have expanded into southern Gaza, an area to which 1.1 million Palestinians from northern Gaza were previously forced to evacuate. Intense fighting around Khan Younis – including significant destruction to residential blocks and towers – as well as ongoing evacuation orders, continue to drive thousands of people into Rafah governorate, which is already hosting over half of Gaza’s population. Those internally displaced are living in makeshift structures, tents or out in the open without basic necessities to survive. In early February airstrikes and bombardments in Rafah increased. Other areas across middle and southern Gaza – where internally displaced Palestinians were directed to seek safety following the Israeli military’s evacuation orders – were also hit by airstrikes and missiles.

Since the resumption of hostilities, the humanitarian catastrophe has worsened with an imminent risk of famine and few remaining operational hospitals in Gaza. Approximately 300,000 Palestinians in northern Gaza are cut off from all humanitarian assistance.

My sympathy for Israel is lessening by the day. The only entities I have less sympathy for are Hezbollah, Hamas, and PA.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.1.26  JBB  replied to  Krishna @5.1.7    3 weeks ago

Yet, here is another perspective...

original

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
5.1.27  Greg Jones  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1.25    3 weeks ago

You're either for the right of Israel to exist, in peace, or against it.

There is no middle ground on this issue.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.28  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.13    3 weeks ago
"It amazes me that anyone is confused by this."

Me too.  I've been saying the same things you did for a while to no avail.  My only thought is that since it is so clear and obvious why Jews have no alternative but to defend themselves against the dedication commanded by Islam to murder them, that those who come up with "excuses" are no better than the Nazis who sought to exterminate the Jews.  They simply try to hide their antisemitism by supporting those who are dedicated to exterminating the Jews. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.29  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.1    3 weeks ago
atheists are consciousness objectors.

Well, you know the olde sayin":

There are no consciousness objectors in foxholes!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.30  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5.1.9    2 weeks ago
Better avoid asking Jordan and Egypt as well

No need to ask-- we already know the answer!

When Israel became independent (1948) the four states bordering Israel plus Iraq all attacked Israel with the intent of exterminating the Jews-- to have a judenfrei Middle East.

To summarize-- the Arabs lost the war. And they refused to make peace, refused to recognize Israel's right to exist.

But over time Egypt and Jordan have decided they could trust Israel enough to make peace with Israel-- so they did!

So yes-- we already know the answer-- their actions show it!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.31  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.1.30    2 weeks ago
But over time Egypt and Jordan have decided they could trust Israel enough to make peace with Israel-- so they did! So yes-- we already know the answer-- their actions show it!

But to this day-- since the end of that war in1948-- the other three (Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq-- still refuse to make peace with Israel!)

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.2  Ronin2  replied to  Tacos! @5    3 weeks ago

Please tell us again what the West Bank Palestinians did to earn Israel's spite since before Oct 7; and even more so after Oct 7?

Israelis have now killed at least 502 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank since October 7. Before October 7 , at least 199 Palestinians had been killed in the West Bank in 2023.

Funny how some people want to consider all Palestinians one people when Hamas or Hezbollah attack Israel; but completely separate entities when Israel does anything against Palestinians in the West Bank. Which was completely ignored by the Western World before Oct 7th; and since Oct 7th been used to justify Israeli actions there.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Ever heard the saying it takes two to fight? The war between Israel and Palestinians has gone on far longer than Oct 7. Neither side is innocent. Only one side gets billions in financial and military aid every year with no strings attached from the US. The other gets a pittance from the US/Israel to keep the Palestinians in the West Bank on a very short leash; and stay out of the way of IDF/settlers. That is unless you count Brandon literally dropping aid packages on the people of Gaza heads; and that completely worthless port he built that aid is now rotting on because it can't be delivered.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2    3 weeks ago
Please tell us again what the West Bank Palestinians did to earn Israel's spite since before Oct 7; and even more so after Oct 7?

How telling that you think all Arabs are the same people.

Do you think all Asians are the same people?

Do you think all Africans are the same people?

Do you think all Europeans are the same people? (By the way half of American Christians  are of European decent- not indigenous Americans).

Do you think all South Americans, Central Americans, Americans, and Canadians are the same people?

I mean Gaza is tiny as compared to the combined countries of Africa. 

Just pick the Arabs up and plop them anywhere else in the European world. It won't cause any problems what-so-ever./S

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.2.3  Tacos!  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2    3 weeks ago
Only one side gets billions in financial and military aid every year with no strings attached from the US.

The other side gets support from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and others. If that’s who you support, that’s your choice to make.

Israel is a country that is surrounded by countries that want to erase it from the surface of the world. They are wildly outnumbered by genocidal maniacs, and always have been. 

In the meantime, people of other ethnicities and religions live freely in Israel. They are part of the government. When there is peace, Israel keeps to itself. When terrorist or neighboring countries move to attack, they defend themselves. In doing so, they take control of land, which they have surrendered multiple times to secure peace treaties. It has not earned them a lasting peace.

Israel has no interest in wiping out other nations, but 2 dozen other countries have that very hope for Israel. I don’t see what is complicated about this. 

Israel could do several things better, but you can’t expect them to just ignore the efforts of their neighbors to kill them all.

Brandon literally dropping aid packages on the people of Gaza heads

You know what else gets dropped on them? Leaflets warning of an impending attack. Israel wants to defeat Hamas, not the Palestinian people. So, they do what they can to minimize casualties. Do you think Hamas or Hezbollah has ever done - or would ever do - that? Yeah, right!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.2.3    3 weeks ago

I don't know why you wasted your time providing actual facts to a person who has stated that Israel has completely blockaded Gaza since 2007.  He ignores the fact that Egypt is part of that accusation, but then Egypt isn't "JOOOISH" eh?  What good are facts when a person's opinion totally ignores what was happening up until Oct 7?  i.e. the ACTUAL facts of hundreds of trucks of supplies such as food, fuel, medicines and medical equipment, everyday necessities passing through the crossings into Gaza daily, the provision of electricity, gas and water, the thousands of Gazans crossing into Israel daily for jobs that paid them much better than they could get in Gaza, the many Gazans needing more sophisticated medical services (including close relatives of Hamas leaders) allowed to cross the border to access Israel's hospitals and superior medical care.  The only thing Israel "blockaded" was the entry of terrorists and weapons and materials that could be assembled into weapons or wartime fortifications, but unfortunately that so-called "blockade" was not able to stop the incendiary kites and balloons, missiles and rockets sent by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Gaza into Israel.  You should not waste your time even BOTHERING to read IGNORANT comments. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2    3 weeks ago

Amnesty and Al Jazeera?  Why not Stormfront and Mein Kampf?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.6  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5.2.3    3 weeks ago
Israel is a country that is surrounded by countries that want to erase it from the surface of the world. They are wildly outnumbered by genocidal maniacs, and always have been.  In the meantime, people of other ethnicities and religions live freely in Israel. They are part of the government.

And, like the Jews, Arab citizens of Israel were also victims of Hamas terrorism on October 7th:

Arab Citizens of Israel Were Not Spared in the Hamas-Led Massacres

The family of Awad Darawsheh spent five agonizing days waiting for news. Mr. Darawsheh, a paramedic in his 20s, had been working at a music festival in southern Israel when Palestinian gunmen stormed in,   firing at fleeing attendees   and dragging others away as hostages.

On Thursday night, his family received word: Mr. Darawsheh had been shot dead during the attack, said Ashraf Ayoub, who oversaw him in the United Hatzalah emergency medical services organization.

Mr. Darawsheh joined a grim list: He was one of more than 100 killed in what appears to have been   one of the worst massacres   of the sweeping surprise attack launched by Hamas on Saturday. And his death underscores how the terror did not spare Israel’s Arab citizens.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.2.6    3 weeks ago

Do monsters care WHO they murder? The more I see those protesting on behalf of terrorists, those in the UN and ICJ who are supporting the terrorists, those who are REWARDING Hamas' terrorism by supporting their wish for 'from the river to the sea", [deleted,] [] including America, did to Dresden in WW2. At least that would have prevented the loss of Israeli soldiers even if it meant sacrificing the hostages - their freedom so far has been a bitter pill to swallow requiring the release of hundreds of convicted terrorists, the women raped and tortured, and so many of them are already dead, probably a lot more than we know.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.2.8  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.2.1    3 weeks ago

Impeccable line of logic.

I am not the one that thinks all Arabs are the same people.

I am also not the one that thinks moving people from one geographic area to another won't cause massive problems.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.2.9  Ronin2  replied to  Tacos! @5.2.3    3 weeks ago

You think Syria and Lebanon have money to support Hezbollah and Hamas? 

Lebanon would like nothing more than Hezbollah to disappear. Iran is the one with the money, weapons, and training that keeps Hezbollah in control. Also Israel not allowing the US to sell Lebanon advanced weapons system. Lebanon's military is nothing more than a glorified police force.

.

As for Syria- Assad needs Hezbollah and Iranian support to stay in power. But Syria is in no place to provide Hezbollah with financial or weapons assistance.

Israel is a country that is surrounded by countries that want to erase it from the surface of the world. They are wildly outnumbered by genocidal maniacs, and always have been. 

Yet Israel is far and away the #1 military power in the ME; no country or militia in the ME can stand against it. Israel helped create Hamas and Hezbollah by their very actions. A fact you continue to ignore. Also, how could they be surrounded by countries that want to erase it from the world when Jordan and Egypt are their bought and paid for US allies?

In the meantime, people of other ethnicities and religions live freely in Israel. They are part of the government. 

Does some research- your argument doesn't hold even the slightest water.

When there is peace, Israel keeps to itself. 

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

  • Blockading Gaza since 2007
  • Illegal settlements in West Bank and Golan Heights. Israeli settler and IDF violence.
  • Illegal incursions into Lebanese and Syrian air space.

Definitely a country that "keeps to itself" when there is peace.

 When terrorist or neighboring countries move to attack, they defend themselves. In doing so, they take control of land, which they have surrendered multiple times to secure peace treaties. It has not earned them a lasting peace.

Just ignore the above repeatedly. Israel never has been and never will be at peace. Only their indisputable military might lets them get away with what would be acts of war anywhere else.

Israel has no interest in wiping out other nations,

Don't tell that to those living in the Golan Heights, Gaza, or West Bank. Think Lebanon might beg to differ as well.

but 2 dozen other countries have that very hope for Israel. I don’t see what is complicated about this. 

I am trying to decide it you really believe BS you are stating. 

Are you trying to state Saudi Arabia and a coalition of Arab states haven't tried to make peace with Israel?

There is just no getting along with those Arabs is there?

Israel could do several things better, but you can’t expect them to just ignore the efforts of their neighbors to kill them all.

Israel isn't even making an effort; so why bother to expect them to do anything. Just keep funding them and the PA. Everything will resolve itself eventually. The battle lines will just change.

You know what else gets dropped on them? Leaflets warning of an impending attack. Israel wants to defeat Hamas, not the Palestinian people. So, they do what they can to minimize casualties. Do you think Hamas or Hezbollah has ever done - or would ever do - that? Yeah, right!

Have you followed the war in Gaza at all. Israel tells them to move; and then bombs that area anyways!

  Israeli airstrikes pounded locations across the Gaza Strip on Thursday, including parts of the south that Israel had declared as safe zones, heightening fears among more than 2 million Palestinians trapped in the territory that nowhere was safe.

In the nearly two weeks since a devastating Hamas rampage in southern Israel, the Israeli military has relentlessly attacked Gaza in response. Even after Israel told Palestinians to evacuate the north and head to what it called “safe zones” in the south, strikes continued across the territory overnight and Palestinian militants continued firing rockets into Israel.

A residential building in Khan Younis, a city in southern Gaza where hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had sought shelter, was among the places hit. Medical personnel at Nasser Hospital said they received at least 12 dead and 40 wounded.

There are no safe zones in Gaza. Those leaflets were worthless. Minimalize casualties; what a bad joke. I don't believe Hamas' numbers for dead and wounded; but sure as hell don't believe that Israel gives a shit about Palestinian civilians. The real numbers won't be known until the war is over and rubble is removed.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.2.10  Ronin2  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.4    3 weeks ago

You want facts? Here are facts.

By the way. Typing in large font and bold doesn't make anything you stated any more correct or important. It doesn't intimidate me either.

Egypt has a closed border with Gaza because it doesn't want Hamas- which Israel helped to bring to power- spilling over into Egypt. Think Israel would tolerate rockets coming into Israel from Egypt? How about just a Hamas presence in Egypt?

Egypt also has a dirty little secret. It has a certain element that it turns a blind eye to that receives money from Iran to build tunnels and transfer weapons and materials that Israel doesn't want Gazans to have.

Here is a complete list of things Israel doesn't want Gazans to have.

Humanitarian workers and government officials working to deliver urgently needed aid for Gaza say a clear pattern has emerged of Israeli obstruction, as disease and near-famine grip parts of the besieged enclave.

The Israeli agency that controls access to Gaza for the multi-billion-dollar aid effort has imposed arbitrary and contradictory criteria, according to more than two dozen humanitarian and government officials interviewed by CNN.

CNN has also reviewed documents compiled by major participants in the humanitarian operation that list the items most frequently rejected by the Israelis. These include anesthetics and anesthesia machines, oxygen cylinders, ventilators and water filtration systems.

Other items that have ended up in bureaucratic limbo include dates, sleeping bags, medicines to treat cancer, water purification tablets and maternity kits.

Israel also tried to kickout those Gazans in Israel that needed medical attention after Oct 7th.

Israel’s Supreme Court has temporarily halted a government plan to send a group of Palestinian patients being treated in East Jerusalem and Tel Aviv hospitals back to Gaza.

The decision follows a petition by the Israeli non-profit organization Physicians for Human Rights Israel, which decided to take action following   a CNN report   on the Palestinian hospital patients.

“Returning residents to Gaza during a military conflict and a humanitarian crisis is against international law and poses a deliberate risk to innocent lives,” the organization’s spokesperson Ran Yaron said Wednesday. “All the more so when it concerns patients who may face a death sentence due to insanitary conditions and   hunger , along with the unlikely availability of medical care.”

Following the group’s appeal, the Israeli Supreme Court issued a temporary injunction to prevent the Israeli government from sending around two dozen Palestinian patients and their companions back to Gaza.

The Palestinians were set to be bussed to Gaza early Thursday morning.   However, after the temporary court injunction, the Israeli government delayed that until at least Monday, hospital officials told CNN.

Dr. Fadi Atrash, CEO of Augusta Victoria Hospital, which is treating Gazan cancer patients, and another hospital official confirmed the delay to CNN.

Among the Palestinians, most of whom were granted access to Jerusalem hospitals by Israeli authorities before October 7, are five newborn babies and their mothers who have been living at Makassed Hospital in East Jerusalem.

The group also included cancer patients now in remission who were being treated at Augusta Victoria Hospital, according to hospital officials and humanitarian officials.

A handful of the Palestinian patients the Israeli government wants to send back to Gaza are also being treated at Tel HaShomer Hospital in the Tel Aviv suburbs, the officials said.

CNN previously reported on the plight of the patients, where mothers expressed   to us their   conflicting emotions about returning to Gaza – with a desire to be reunited with family and other children, but also the instinct to protect their newborns by staying in Jerusalem.

Yes, Israel did allow a very small number of Gazans to work in Israel before Oct 7. Some 18,000 out of 2.5 million Gazans. A very small drop in a very large bucket.

"We used to serve them, work for them, in houses, in restaurants, and in markets in return for the lowest wages, and despite that we have now been humiliated," said Jamal Ismail, a worker from the Maghazi refugee camp in central Gaza.

Israel previously issued more than 18,000 permits allowing Gazans to cross into Israel and the Israeli-occupied West Bank to take jobs in sectors like agriculture or construction that typically carried salaries up to 10 times what a worker could earn in the blockaded Gaza Strip.

However, the system has been scrapped as Israel has reversed its previous policy of offering economic incentives to stability and instead mounted a combined air and ground offensive to eradicate the militant Hamas movement that controls Gaza.
"Israel is severing all contact with Gaza. There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said in a statement. "Those workers from Gaza who were in Israel on the day of the outbreak of the war will be returned to Gaza."
Whether you or anyone else likes it I can be against Hezbollah, Hamas, PA, and Israel all at the same time. I am pro Palestinian. That doesn't mean I am anti-Semitic or wish Israel to cease to exist. 
Mostly I want the US to stop funding every country and entity in the world's most dysfunctional sand box. You can't fix stupid no matter how much money and weaponry you throw at it. Especially when it can be better used elsewhere.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.2.11  Ronin2  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.5    3 weeks ago

Can you dispute the facts in the Al Jazeera links I posted?

What problem do you have with Amnesty International? I use their articles to point out the short comings of countries all over the world- including the US.

Not every entity that doesn't share your undying loyalty to Israel is a Nazi. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.12  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.7    3 weeks ago

blah, blah, blah...  now speak to the radical religious terrorists within the israeli government, the haredim and all the other ultra nationalists that are aligned with bibi, whose objective is to continue the endless cycle of religious intimidation, revenge, and retribution as a way to attract even more US aid to sustain the yearly financial requirement to fully support those within israeli society that will not work and have exempted themselves from mandatory military service in defense of the country that provides full financial support to them and their families.

my position here seems to be unique. I support the innocent and moderate in the region that wish to live in peace. I want the religious radicals on all sides encouraged and enabled to exterminate each other, and gaza is the perfect vehicle. intern all the radical religious bible thumpers, rug sniffers, and foreskin pruners that cannot and will not live in peace, while their religious enemies still breathe, into gaza until the killing stops and attack any outside faction that attempts to help out the imprisoned combatants with a land, sea, and air kill zone surrounding gaza.

this is an important lesson for those americans that need a demonstration of what rule by radical religious minorities is like.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.13  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2.11    3 weeks ago

Ever been to Israel, Ronin2?  Rather than what I read I rely on what I've seen with my own eyes, listened to what was said in Isreal by those who said it, and I am not going to say as Pogo did "We have met the enemy, and it is us" but I have met the Muslims in Israel and I have listened to what they told me, "they" including the Muslim doctors and nurses (who were genuinely in tears) in Laniado Hospital in Netanya after I had stood inside the demolished reception room of the Park Hotel a couple of days after the "Passover Massacre".  I witnessed a bus bombing in Jerusalem, I have had to run and hide in a bomb shelter on a kibbutz when bomb-bearing kites were flown overhead.  I have no reason to doubt my son's story of being knocked out of his bed in Jerusalem when a bomb exploded demolishing the cafe on the main floor of the building in which he was living and tearing the customers to pieces, only by the grace of God not including him where he normally would have been eating breakfast - yes, I didn't see it, but my son does not lie to me and I know him well enough to believe what he tells me.  So where have you been in Israel, Ronin, let's hear what YOU have personally witnessed and maybe I'll have reason to give credence to your personal experiences. 

Oh, and as to your assumptions as to why I increase the font from 12 point to 14 point when I'm writing, it is so I can read what I am writing a little more easily because at my age my vision is waning, even with glasses.  There are actually some members on NT who show the courtesy of increasing the font of their replies to me accordingly.  It's not easy to type while I'm holding a magnifying glass.

What it comes down to, Ronin2, is that I disagree with most of what you have to say, and I don't give a damn what media you use for support.  ALL the media has turned to shit over the years and Walter Cronkite and Edward R Murrow aren't around any more.  I believe what I see with my own eyes.   

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.14  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @5.2.12    3 weeks ago

As much as I have good reason to dislike you, I can't disagree with your comment. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.15  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.14    3 weeks ago

I despise the religious radicals of all 3 abrahamic sects equally, along with their religious sycophants that claim to represent peace and brotherly love while they remain silent as the killing of the innocents continues. their warped versions of religion are destructive businesses and any possible future peace in the middle east involves those religious radicals becoming compost, and by divine coincidence, the sand they're standing on is easy to excavate and it could really use the only redeeming qualities of their fanatical lives, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, and the magnesium their otherwise useless corpses would leave behind in the sand as they decompose.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.16  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @5.2.15    3 weeks ago
I despise the religious radicals of all 3 abrahamic sects equally,

Why do you cut slack to the Hindus and the Buddha's? 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.17  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.13    3 weeks ago

AND by the way, I will NEVER take seriously what a person who ignorantly unceasingly insists that Israel has maintained a "complete" blockade of Gaza since 2007, no matter WHAT sources he uses to back up that opinion.  Just the same as I won't reply to anyone who continues to childishly call Biden "Brandon" no matter how much I now personally disrespect Biden. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.18  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2    3 weeks ago
Only one side gets billions in financial and military aid every year with no strings attached from the US.

And only one side gets billions in financial and military aid every year with no strings attached from Iran!

Interesting, eh? jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.19  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.17    3 weeks ago
I will NEVER take seriously what a person who ignorantly unceasingly insists that Israel has maintained a "complete" blockade of Gaza since 2007, no matter WHAT sources he uses to back up that opinion

That person is either intentionally trying to deceive-- or just ignorant of the facts.

What facts?

Gaza borders two countries-- Israel and Egypt. So even if Israel managed to seal off Gaza so it was "air-tight"--- it wouldn't be effective if Egypt let aid in. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.20  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.2.19    3 weeks ago
That person is either intentionally trying to deceive-- or just ignorant of the facts.

What facts?

Gaza borders two countries-

Taht's "fact #1".

Fact #2: Gaza is not self-suffiecient in growing food. So if there was an airtight blockade they's all would've perished long ago.

So where was all the food they had been receiving coming from? 

("Food for thought"-- eh?)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.21  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.2.20    3 weeks ago

IMO, when a person continues his lie even after being corrected, you cannot pay credence to anything he has to say, even if he finds sources that confirm it since sources are all garbage these days anyway.   And as well, the person who wrote "blah, blah, blah" should point it at the person who refuses to give up saying what is nothing more than "blah, blah. blah"/

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.22  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2    2 weeks ago
Funny how some people want to consider all Palestinians one people

LOL!

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
5.3  MrFrost  replied to  Tacos! @5    3 weeks ago

But somehow, it’s all Israel’s fault that the war continues.

Of course not, but their leader is a terrorist. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.3.1  devangelical  replied to  MrFrost @5.3    2 weeks ago

I'll bet bibi thinks long and hard before getting onto any jet aircraft for flights over large bodies of water...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.3.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @5.3.1    2 weeks ago

Since you are trying to keep this piece alive, let me add something meaningful:

Biden decided, without permission, to spend more than $500M building a pier to deliver aid to Gaza. Palestinian terrorists intercepted every ounce of that aid. The US military suffered multiple casualties, which were covered up. That and slowalking Israel is Biden's policy on this war.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.3.3  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @5.3.2    2 weeks ago

oops, some of our cruise missiles accidentally got launched and the patriot missile defense system we gifted bibi didn't recognize them as hostile...

so sorry about those illegal settlements vaporized in the west bank, another tragic accident of war ...

/s

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
5.3.4  Sparty On  replied to  Vic Eldred @5.3.2    2 weeks ago

Standard Biden boondoggle.   His old boss tried to warn everyone.    Some of us already knew.

The Gaza pier blew

And Biden knew

Turk 182

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6  Nerm_L    3 weeks ago

Well, 'this' cannot end until the fate of the hostages are determined.  The situation isn't any different than when Iran took Americans hostage in 1979.  There can be no hope of peace until the hostages are repatriated alive or dead.  Even the dimmest of wits should understand that repatriating the hostages is the lowest possible bar to bring an end to the war.

Once the minimal goal of repatriating the hostages has been achieved, the IDF can withdraw to the Israeli side of the border and await the beginning of the cycle of retaliation.  The Palestinians, being the stupid fuckwits they are, will begin firing rockets into Israel again.  And Israel can retaliate from the Israeli side of the border with Gaza.  That will create a never ending tit for tat cycle of retaliation.  So, 'this' ends by never ending.  The only thing Israel needs to worry about is defending itself.  The future of a Palestinian state is not Israel's problem.  In fact, creating a Palestinian state has never been Israel's problem other than as a security threat.

The reality is that Israel is not needed to establish and recognize a Palestinian state.  The UN can recognize a Palestinian state anytime someone puts it on the floor for a vote.  But here's the problem -- recognizing a Palestinian state means you own it.  All these high-minded neoliberal gaslighters are trying to do is shift responsibility for a Palestinian state onto Israel.  Israel doesn't need a Palestinian state; Israel needs security assurances.  So, the liberal moralizers only need to step up and take responsibility for the actions of the Palestinian state they create.  Would the UN vote to condemn the Palestinian state they just created?  Will liberal academics protest and demand that a Palestinian state be held accountable for its actions?  That exceeds the limit of disbelief.  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1  devangelical  replied to  Nerm_L @6    3 weeks ago

whatever spares the innocent and puts the most hypocritical religious radicals under the ground the quickest, world wide...

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  devangelical @6.1    3 weeks ago
whatever spares the innocent and puts the most hypocritical religious radicals under the ground the quickest, world wide...

Oh, spare us the sermon of empty platitudes.  The aborted may be innocent but they aren't spared.  In fact, the aborted innocent have become a commercialized political commodity.  Damn the innocence, kill the parasites!

Return the hostages.  Bring the terrorists who attacked and killed innocent Israelis to justice.  Condemn the Palestinians for dancing the streets over spilled Israeli blood.  Why are those unrealistic expectations?  The Palestinians have not condemned such uncivilized behavior.  In fact the Palestinians openly celebrated the terrorism against Israel so why are they considered innocent?  Do the Palestinians not know what they do?  Are Palestinians that fucking stupid?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.1    3 weeks ago

... uh, where did I mention abortion?

jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
6.1.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.1    3 weeks ago
In fact the Palestinians openly celebrated the terrorism against Israel so why are they considered innocent?

These "spare the innocent" also forget that theses same palistenians celebrated on 9-11.  Now they are crying because they are feeling the consequences of the actions they celebrated.  

Do the Palestinians not know what they do? 

They do.

Are Palestinians that fucking stupid?

They are.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.4  Nerm_L  replied to  devangelical @6.1.2    3 weeks ago
... uh, where did I mention abortion?

"whatever spares the innocent"  Aren't these your words?  There are no humans more innocent than the unborn.  If we're going to pick 'n choose who is innocent and who is not then the burden of hypocrisy really can't be avoided. 

Denying the unborn their innocence as well as their existence for the sake of self-serving convenience seems all too Palestinian.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.5  Nerm_L  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @6.1.3    3 weeks ago
These "spare the innocent" also forget that theses same palistenians celebrated on 9-11.  Now they are crying because they are feeling the consequences of the actions they celebrated. 

What would Muslim Jesus do?  The religion of peace does seem to have queer concern for innocence.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.4    3 weeks ago
sake of self-serving convenience

A mantra for a new generation ….

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.7  Nerm_L  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.6    3 weeks ago
A mantra for a new generation ….

Yeah, it used to be sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll.  Kids today don't know how good they got it.  Sex is free and drugs are legal.  And the phony 'get real' crowd wants to ignore that God gave rock 'n roll to you.

(It's kinda weird seeing Kiss without the makeup.  Maybe that's too real for the 'get real' crowd.)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1.8  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @6.1.2    3 weeks ago
... uh, where did I mention abortion? jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

It was in another seeded article-- about 1 1/2 weeks ago IIRRC.

(Or maybe it was before that-- maybe 2 weeks ago?)

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.9  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.7    3 weeks ago

KISS light … no Ace Frehley

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.10  devangelical  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.4    3 weeks ago

small wonder that the rest of the world paints sane americans with the same broad brush as the maga morons...

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.11  Nerm_L  replied to  devangelical @6.1.10    3 weeks ago
small wonder that the rest of the world paints sane americans with the same broad brush as the maga morons...

Well, which friggin' innocents are YOU talking about?  It's easy to toss out catchphrase platitudes like any European liberal.  But there's rubber to burn so put in on the road.

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
6.1.12  shona1  replied to  devangelical @6.1.10    3 weeks ago

Morning...mmmhh..I think you will find the rest of the world really doesn't give a flying fig about American politics..

We just can't believe how..

One.. you tolerate all the crap..

Two... how so many Americans are totally obsessed by it..almost ruling their lives...

All the Americans I have met and worked with were excellent people, sane and some even converted to Vegemite... Can't get any better that that...

 
 
 
GregTx
Professor Guide
6.1.13  GregTx  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.9    3 weeks ago

Absofuckinglutely...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.14  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @6.1.10    3 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.1.15  seeder  Kavika   replied to  shona1 @6.1.12    3 weeks ago

I resent that, we are not sane, never have been and never intend to be, in fact, we put sane people in sanitariums. Remember ''One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"". I loved it when Big Chief threw the toilet through the window and escaped for life. The reason was that instead of a lobotomy they were going to force-feed him Vegemite, and Big Chief said ''Oh Hell No'' and jumped the rez. 

This is true, I do not speak with forked tongue. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.1.16  seeder  Kavika   replied to  GregTx @6.1.13    3 weeks ago

Oh my, what tribe is he from, looks like he is from the ''Wannabe Tribe'' to me. You can tell by the hair, it's black and a good job on the face paint. 

 
 
 
GregTx
Professor Guide
6.1.17  GregTx  replied to  Kavika @6.1.16    3 weeks ago

I believe he's from the "Bad Ass Guitarist" tribe

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.1    3 weeks ago

Yes, the Palestinians openly celebrated the terrorism against Israel, JUST THE SAME AS THEY DID OPENLY CELEBRATING THE TERRORISM AGAINST AMERICA ON 9/11. Yes, look at all their cheerleaders around the world, INCLUDING IN AMERICA,[]

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1.19  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.5    3 weeks ago
What would Muslim Jesus do?  The religion of peace does seem to have queer concern for innocence.

 queer concern?

JESUS WAS GAY?

Peace Be Upon Him!!!!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1.20  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.14    3 weeks ago
All the world needs to do is read NTers for awhile, to figure out who the real kooks are.

Indeed.

(You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows...)

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
6.1.21  shona1  replied to  Kavika @6.1.15    3 weeks ago

Strewth your rellies in NSW and WA would be appalled..

How can you bag out Vegemite..and you are thinking of being a ridgy didge Aussie..

Fair dinkum, this is more than a koala can bare..🐨

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.1.22  seeder  Kavika   replied to  GregTx @6.1.17    3 weeks ago

So he's from the BAG Tribe, nice.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.1.23  seeder  Kavika   replied to  shona1 @6.1.21    3 weeks ago

LMAO

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.24  devangelical  replied to  shona1 @6.1.12    3 weeks ago
some even converted to Vegemite...

I doubt even tabasco could help that veggie sludge...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.25  Sparty On  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.14    3 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1.26  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @6.1.24    3 weeks ago
I doubt even tabasco could help that veggie sludge...

Apparently there's a serious problem-- an actual shortage of hot sauce!

Is there a national hot sauce shortage?

(Asking for a friend!)

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
6.1.27  shona1  replied to  Krishna @6.1.26    3 weeks ago

Morning.. hot sauce shortage?..

No probs, we can fix that..

256

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.28  devangelical  replied to  shona1 @6.1.27    3 weeks ago

a unique food that looks the same before and after digestion...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.29  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @6.1.28    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.30  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @6.1.19    2 weeks ago
queer concern?

JESUS WAS GAY?

Peace Be Upon Him!!!!

People see Jesus in their own image, don't they?  (Is that some sort of self validation?)  Queer is as queer does.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.31  devangelical  replied to  shona1 @6.1.12    2 weeks ago
how so many Americans are totally obsessed by it..almost ruling their lives..

not to mention how defective the memories of the willfully ignorant are, and how they think it's all been forgotten...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6    3 weeks ago
Even the dimmest of wits should understand that repatriating the hostages is the lowest possible bar to bring an end to the war.

Unfortunately, social media sites occasionally have that problem: that they attract the dimmest of wits! (Fortunately here on NT we don't have that problem jrSmiley_34_smiley_image.gif )

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Krishna @6.2    3 weeks ago

mostly correct ...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.3  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6    2 weeks ago
The Palestinians, being the stupid fuckwits they are, will begin firing rockets into Israel again.

Actually they just started up again:

May 26, 2024, 7:30 AM EDT
By   Freddie Clayton

The   Israeli military   sounded sirens in   Tel Aviv   for the first time in months on Sunday, warning of possible incoming rockets after Hamas’ military wing announced it had launched a fresh attack on the city.

An NBC News journalist witnessed Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system intercepting at least one rocket.

Earlier, aid trucks entered Gaza through southern Israel as part of a new agreement to bypass the Rafah crossing with Egypt.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
7  Right Down the Center    3 weeks ago

How does it end? It is a war, it ends when one side unconditionaly surrenders.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
7.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Right Down the Center @7    3 weeks ago

Although it is inevitable that Israel's superior military will eventually win the war, why aren't all those "righteous" nations and organizations like the anti-Semitic United Nations and International Court of Justice who are blaming and demonizing Israel and trying to force it to stop, calling for Hamas to SURRENDER, which would INSTANTLY stop the war, the bloodshed, release the hostages and open all doors to humanitarian aid and start the rebuilding?  Can anyone explain it to me, because to me it is damned obvious why Hamas is glorified and supported by protests around the world - WHY? - using the same spelling as I recall seeing on Newsvine - "It's those JOOOOZ!!!"

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
7.1.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.1    3 weeks ago

They can try and spin it anyway they want, it is still antisemitism.  Hamas gets a free pass because they are expected to act like barbarians and they are.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
7.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Right Down the Center @7.1.1    2 weeks ago

Hamas must be wiped off the face of the earth.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
7.1.3  charger 383  replied to  Sparty On @7.1.2    2 weeks ago

And, the sooner the better

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
7.1.4  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @7.1.2    2 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
7.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @7.1.4    2 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
7.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @7.1.4    2 weeks ago
but we should wait until the badass xtian nationalist crusaders here can get there first

How many badass atheist, internationalist freedom fighters have gotten to the Ukraine?

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
7.1.7  Right Down the Center  replied to  devangelical @7.1.4    2 weeks ago

Right after all the LWNJ antisemite Hamas sucking congress people and protesters go over there to fight with Hamas instead of doing it from a few thousand miles away expecting to be fed because they are poor victims.  Or maybe all the LBGTQ whatever stop buy Gaza in the finest rainbow suits to show support for Hamas in person.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @7.1.6    2 weeks ago

but we should wait until the badass xtian nationalist crusaders here can get there first

How many badass atheist, internationalist freedom fighters have gotten to the Ukraine?

I think I see the problem.

The badass xtian nationalist crusaders are spreading themselves too thin!

(Which reduces their effectiveness-- if not their actual visibility!)

What badass xtian nationalist crusaders need to remember-- one thing at a time! There's no rush! Remember: God is on our side!

ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!!!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.1.9  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @7.1.6    2 weeks ago
How many badass atheist, internationalist freedom fighters have gotten to the Ukraine?

I have no idea-- heck, that's way above my pay grade!
Maybe we should ask this guy-- he should know!!!

256

Onward and upward!

Lux et Libertas!

Onward, ever onward...for the true Christian soldier neither rests nor sleeps!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8  seeder  Kavika     3 weeks ago

Since we have a fairly good back and forth going, as the seeder of this article I have a few questions to ask of the commentators here. 

Who has been to the ME, especially Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza, West Bank or Iran? 

Who may have done research on the history of the ME?

Who has a degree in History of the ME either a major or minor?

Who is a dual citizen of the US and Israel or any other country and Israel?

Anyone who has done any of the above please give us your experience, good, bad or indifferent. 

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
8.1  shona1  replied to  Kavika @8    3 weeks ago

Arvo...yes I have been to Israel back in 1985..crickey that seems so long ago now..

I stayed there for 4 weeks and toured from one end of the country to the other.. Australia has WW1 links to Gaza and Palestine especially at Beersheba with the light horse..

I didn't go into Jordan because at the time if you had been to Israel you were barred from entering the country..

I went into Egypt for a week..was only interested in seeing the pyramids and then got out..back into Israel..

Had a ball, felt perfectly safe was by myself but went on a small tour group traveling all through Israel..

Yes the border crossings were abit of a nightmare but had no problems..

At the time there was fighting going on with Lebanon and I was sitting on the beach at Tel Aviv watching the armed helicopters fly up and back which I found rather interesting and you tend to forget a war was going on at the time..

It's not until you shut the motel door you remember as it is not a fire escape map on the back, it was a map to the nearest bomb shelter... plus there were armed soldiers everywhere from out in the middle of the desert and the public would stop give them rides to where ever as they were on leave..or on crowded public buses and just hoped they had the safety on their guns..

There was religious tension at the dome on the rock when I was there and had been stone throwing incidents and also at the wailing wall... soldiers were there in large numbers..

Would I go back to Israel again, absolutely.. Egypt I would pass as nothing else interests me there...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  shona1 @8.1    3 weeks ago

Thank you, shona.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.2  Krishna  replied to  shona1 @8.1    3 weeks ago
Would I go back to Israel again, absolutely.. Egypt I would pass as nothing else interests me there...

In the past I've traveled a lot--been to all continents except South America. (Well I've never been to the land of the Vegemite Trees-- but is that a continent?)

But I am replying to your comment because it is probably my least favourite country of all I've visited. (I really didn't like the Egyptians...).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @8.1.2    3 weeks ago
But I am replying to your comment because it is probably my least favourite country of all I've visited. (I really didn't like the Egyptians..).

But before I am accused of islamophobia, I should add that one of my favourite countries was Morocco! Wonderful people, wonderful culture!

Also really liked Mexico-- been there several times. (But that was also long ago-- hard to believe but it was at a time when drug gangs were pretty much non-existent).

And I fell in love with Paris-- lived there just over a month, attended the Sorbonne. wanted to move there at one point. (but also wanted to live in the U.S.-- at the time I had hopes of becoming wealthy-- having a place in U.S. and a place in Paris.

(Although never wanted to give up my U.S. citizenship, and never had an urge to get French citizenship).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.4  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @8.1.3    3 weeks ago
(Although never wanted to give up my U.S. citizenship, and never had an urge to get French citizenship).

Re: the other (Arab) countries in Kavika's question, I wanted to visit them but at the time,like Shona-- I experienced the fact that having been to Israel they wouldn't have let me in.

P.S; If I could, one of the countries I'd most like to visit is Iran. (Which, BTW, is not an Arab country-- they are Persians)> Their current gov't is horrific and doesn't appeal to me but what does is the people-- the Persian civilization has always fascinated me!)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
8.1.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @8.1.3    3 weeks ago
But before I am accused of islamophobia, I should add that one of my favourite countries was Morocco!

Indonesia, home to the single largest Muslim population, is a wonderful place to visit.

25 years ago, the country was in danger of splitting up after years of poverty and dictatorial rule.  Unlike the Mideast, they not only survived, but thrived and is a stable, democracy with ever expanding wealth.

Great food, people, diversity in all things, it’s a wonderful vacation.

Their biggest problem remains corruption, but they are working on it.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.6  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.1.5    3 weeks ago
25 years ago, the country was in danger of splitting up after years of poverty and dictatorial rule.  Unlike the Mideast, they not only survived, but thrived and is a stable, democracy with ever expanding wealth.

Sounds like an interesting place to visit! 

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
8.1.7  shona1  replied to  Krishna @8.1.2    3 weeks ago

Morning Krishie...yes Australia is a continent...we are the smallest continent but one of the largest countries..

Got the best of both worlds..

No I was not fussed with Egypt.. loved the pyramids as they were totally spectacular but the actual country...was more than relieved when I crossed back into Israel..

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
8.1.8  devangelical  replied to  shona1 @8.1.7    3 weeks ago
Australia is a continent

... a sand bar set around a big rock.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.1.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @8.1.4    3 weeks ago

You said you've been to all continents - so have you ever been to China?  I've been to 17 countries, including in all continents except for South and Central America but including a lot of Islands, but not Australia.  I too enjoyed Morocco, where I was in Tangier, Tetuan, and a village in the mountains.  However, of all the countries I have ever been in, including my own Canada, the most fascinating, the most interesting, the most beautiful, the most overflowing with culture and tradition, has been China.

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
8.1.10  shona1  replied to  devangelical @8.1.8    3 weeks ago

Sun, sand and surf all to ourselves and our friends.... can't get better than that...

Meanwhile two other countries are stuck with you mob..

256

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.1.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  shona1 @8.1.10    3 weeks ago

Maybe so, but Crocodile Dundee knew how to deal with denizens...

j2V06W.gif?download=true

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.12  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.1.9    3 weeks ago
You said you've been to all continents - so have you ever been to China? 

What I said was true, but a bit misleading. (That I had been to all continents except South America). When I realized that a while  I found it amusingm that i had not been to South America since its in the same Hemisphere.

Also while its true I've been to Asia, its only one country on that continent (Israel). 

The top three countries I'd like to visit (not necessarily in order): 

1. France again especially Paris, also other parts I haven't been to especially the South.

2. Yes, China. I've known several Americans who've been there-- all said very positive things. I've also studied a lot of Chinese medicine (Informally-- on my own) and read a little of the ancient history of the country. Also from friends who've been there-- many said the people were amongst the friendliest they've met!

3. Persia! (AKA Iran). The current government is horrendous-- but the people are great! And (like China) the are descended from one of the most amazing ancient empires.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.13  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.1.9    3 weeks ago
a village in the mountains. 

Marrakesh?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.1.14  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @8.1.13    3 weeks ago

I can't remember the name but I think I would have remembered it if it WAS Marrakesh.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.15  Krishna  replied to  shona1 @8.1.7    2 weeks ago
Morning Krishie...yes Australia is a continent...we are the smallest continent but one of the largest countries..

Thanks for that information!

I was never sure-- I've heard Australia referred to as a "subcontinent"-- but somehow that doesn't seem to make sense. 

I know New Zealand isn't a continent-- so what continent is NZ in? (Asia?)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.16  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.1.14    2 weeks ago
I can't remember the name but I think I would have remembered it if it WAS Marrakesh.

That was one of the main thigs I wanted to visit, but I didn't stay in Morocco long enough. (And I don't think its actually in the mountains -- of if so more like the foothills?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.17  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.1.5    2 weeks ago
Indonesia, home to the single largest Muslim population, is a wonderful place to visit.

Years ago I had an aunt who performed in the theatre in Amsterdam. She was a mime (like Chaplin or Marcel Marceau). She went on tour to much of the Dutch-speaking world-- including Indonesia. (Long ago the Netherlands was a major colonial power, so there were many Dutch speaking countries).

Among other places, she performed in Indonesia (this was long ago-- it might even still have been before independence when it was still "The Dutch East Indies"!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1.18  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @8.1.17    2 weeks ago

Among other places, she performed in Indonesia (this was long ago-- it might even still have been before independence when it was still "The Dutch East Indies"!)

I remember she liked to cook, foods from many countries she had visited. One of my favourite dishes was called "Nasi Goring". It used a special spice called "Sambal".

I tried to make it myself (I used to be very into cooking-- especially foreign foods). But I could never make it as good as hers.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.1.19  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @8.1.16    2 weeks ago

Sorry, I DID mean the foothills, not the mountains.  For some reason I couldn't think of that word - my aging brain I guess. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @8    3 weeks ago

Well, I think you already know I've been to Israel more than once, Jordon to tour Petra, the West Bank, and I and a couple of friends WALKED to Egypt when we were in Eilat.  The last time I was there was 22 years ago.  I have written about my experiences and posted photo essays about them on NT previously.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.2.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.2    3 weeks ago

Thanks, Buzz.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2.2  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.2    3 weeks ago

I've been to Israel more than once, Jordon to tour Petra, the West Bank, and I and a couple of friends WALKED to Egypt when we were in Eilat.

I almost went to Petra-- sorry I missed it. (Had a choice to go to Egypt or Petra-- decided on Egypt).

And, given the current situation-- he's an interesting story. I also missed a tour of Gaza! (Thinking about it, I wished I had done that).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @8.2.2    3 weeks ago

And, given the current situation-- he's an interesting story. I also missed a tour of Gaza! (Thinking about it, I wished I had done that).

I flew from Israel to Cairo, very short trip by plane. When booking my trip, it was suggested I return by tourist bus-- north from Cairo to the Meditteranean, then East on coastal road to Egypt-Gaza border (Rafah) and sighting -seeing in Gaza, then bus from Gaza border back  to Israel.

At the time Gaza was occupied by Israel. And it was a very propserous area. There were settlements, small towns, and a lot of commerce.IIRC there were luxury car dealerships in  in Gaza. And very prosperous greenhouses on a large scale, exporting flowers and other products around the world.

Large luxurious homes of the wealthy-- yes, including wealthy Arabs. And luxurious resorts on the sea.

The average Palestinian was pretty well off-- many worked in the settlements and received much better wages than they would've gotten over the border in Egypt! 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.2.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @8.2.2    3 weeks ago

Petra was actually quite interesting, but what I remember most about it was the young Jordanian kid entrepreneurs who gathered up small rocks from the ground, put them on a table and sold them as souvenirs to the tourists (who could, of course, have picked up the very same rocks from off the ground themselves).  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.2.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @8.2.3    3 weeks ago

Thanks to UNRWA and Hamas THEY BLEW IT - they could be the stupidest people in the world.  Those magnificent greenhouses, many donated by Bill Gates or his foundation were demolished by those ignorant Gazans when the Jews were forcibly vacated from Gaza by the IDF. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
8.2.6  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @8.2.5    2 weeks ago

wait till you see what happens to the rest of the illegal settlements that aren't abandoned intact...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.2.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @8.2.6    2 weeks ago

I don't understand the context of your comment.  Who ever said the Jews were living illegally in Gaza?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2.8  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @8.2.6    2 weeks ago
wait till you see what happens to the rest of the illegal settlements that aren't abandoned intact...

Which settlements are you referring to? There are no settlements anymore in Gaza-- hasn't been since the Jews all left (2005).

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.2.9  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @8.2.8    2 weeks ago

They are all in the West Bank and there are more and more every day with the blessing of Netanyahu and the IDF.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2.10  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @8.2.9    2 weeks ago
They are all in the West Bank and there are more and more every day with the blessing of Netanyahu and the IDF.

I was aware of that-- actually I was asking devangelical because I was wondering what he was thinking of.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
8.2.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @8.2.10    2 weeks ago

Either Dev's comment was an off topic deflection about the West Bank, or he won't answer you because he has no answer. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
8.2.12  devangelical  replied to  Krishna @8.2.10    2 weeks ago
I was wondering what he was thinking of

I'm thinking 66K draft dodging haredim being marched into gaza to defend the country that fully subsidizes their theocratic lifestyle and agenda would be interesting...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9  seeder  Kavika     2 weeks ago

Sadly, there was a ''huge mistake'' when Israel bombed a DP area and 45 were killed and many more wounded. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
9.1  Sparty On  replied to  Kavika @9    2 weeks ago

Only a matter of time.    In my view Israel appears to have gone above and beyond to minimize such events.    Some would say to the advantage of Hamas.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @9.1    2 weeks ago
Some would say to the advantage of Hamas.

I would say that! jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

I would said that of all the people (& countries) that are helping Hamas, there are two that are currently helping  Hamas the most: Iran and Israel.

(The good news is that public opinion in Israel is turning against Netanyahu-- the bad news is that its not happening more quickly.)

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
9.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @9.1.1    2 weeks ago
I would said that of all the people (& countries) that are helping Hamas, there are two that are currently helping  Hamas the most: Iran and Israel.

You forgot third place.    The USA.    Hamas is putting the five finger discount on much of the humanitarian aid we are sending.

Big time.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @9.1.2    2 weeks ago
You forgot third place.    The USA.    Hamas is putting the five finger discount on much of the humanitarian aid we are sending.

I just saw this on the news that that "pier" or dock, whatever its called is out of service:

U.S. aid deliveries to Gaza by sea suspended after damage to temporary pier

TEL AVIV — The United States military has been forced to suspend aid deliveries into the   Gaza Strip   by sea after its   temporary pier system   off Gaza's coast suffered damage in bad weather, a United Nations official, a U.S. official and an Israeli official told NBC News. 

The damage was to a causeway that is attached to the beach in Gaza, the officials said. Aid is shuttled onto the causeway by small boats after being initially unloaded on the massive   floating dock. 

An American service member also remains in critical condition in an Israeli hospital after suffering noncombat injuries on the pier last week, a U.S. defense official said. Two other service members suffered minor injuries. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
9.1.4  devangelical  replied to  Krishna @9.1.3    2 weeks ago
An American service member also remains in critical condition in an Israeli hospital after suffering noncombat injuries on the pier last week, a U.S. defense official said. Two other service members suffered minor injuries. 

they put jarheads on navy ships to keep the squids from falling off. maybe they should put a few on the pier... /s

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @9    2 weeks ago
Sadly, there was a ''huge mistake'' when Israel bombed a DP area and 45 were killed and many more wounded

In agree-- it is sad. To say the least.

So many "huge mistakes" happen in wartime., For example, as I imagine you know.  in WWII there was The Fire Bombing of Dresden:

On the evening of February 13, 1945, a series of  Allied firebombing raids  begins against the German city of  Dresden , reducing the “Florence of the Elbe” to rubble and flames, and killing roughly 25,000 people.

Strange as it may seem, that one killed even more civilians than this one in in Gaza.(Not that any deaths of civilians are justifiable).

And as far as I know The Firebombing of Dresden didn't result in large demonstrations across American (or British!) campuses. 

Strange, eh?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.2    2 weeks ago

Strange as it may seem, that one killed even more civilians than this one in in Gaza.(Not that any deaths of civilians are justifiable).

Actually I'm not generally in favor of killing soldiers either (In fact in the 60's I was a typical "peacenik"-- demonstrating against the War in Vietnam.) 

Anyone remember that one?

Note to Buzz: I know you can't view vidoe on YouTube, so here's the info: This is that famous Country Joes and the Fish Song, "I Think I'm Fixin' to Die" rag. I believe it was first played at Woodstock.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.2.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @9.2    2 weeks ago

Bombing of Tokyo , (March 9–10, 1945), firebombing raid (codenamed “Operation Meetinghouse”) by the  United States  on the  capital of Japan  during the final stages of  World War II , often cited as one of the most destructive acts of war in history, more destructive than the bombing of  Dresden Hiroshima , or  Nagasaki . Although the precise death toll is unknown,  conservative  estimates suggest that the firestorm caused by  incendiary  bombs killed at least 80,000 people, and likely more than 100,000, in a single night; some one million people were left homeless. The Japanese later called this the “Night of the Black Snow.”

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.2.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.2.1    2 weeks ago

I know the song well.  I played it many times in my home back then, especially when my draft dodger friends were over for a toque. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.4  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.2.3    2 weeks ago
I know the song well.  I played it many times in my home back then, especially when my draft dodger friends were over for a toque. 

Were you in Canada or the U.S. back then?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.2.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.2.4    2 weeks ago

It was before I was married, when I was the senior partner of a law firm in Toronto and owned my own home there, but was a weekend hippie as well.  I didn't marry until I was 35 y.o. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.6  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.2.5    2 weeks ago
It was before I was married, when I was the senior partner of a law firm in Toronto and owned my own home there, but was a weekend hippie as well.  I didn't marry until I was 35 y.o. 

The reason I asked was because you mentioned "draft dodger friends". I remember that during the Viet-Nam War, many Americans crossed the border into Canada to avoid the draft. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.7  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.2.5    2 weeks ago

I was the senior partner of a law firm in Toronto  

I've heard it takes a long time from when you are first hired by a law firm 'till you become a partner? How long does it usually take?

(I had vocational counseling in Jr High School and took aptitude tests-- one of the top recomendations was that I go into law. (But I wanted to become a Scientist and do research). I probably would've made a god lawyer-- when I want to my mind works like that of a lawyer.

Interestingly, over the years I've had a fair number of lawyer friends. I also dated a lawyer for a while....

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.2.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.2.7    2 weeks ago

Time to become a partner is an absolute variable - depends on the number of years people have been lawyers, their experience, their competence, their value generally (such as being a rainmaker) and the combination of people who form the firm.  I had friends who followed me and wanted to be with me in practice.  

I think I told you previously that I had an aptitude test later in life, and it indicated I was best suited to be a farmer.  There have been times when I wished it had been my original and permanent lifestyle.  But I'm partway there now - I married a farmer's daughter who was brought up on a farm, and she is presently growing lots of great veggies on a plot staked out within walking distance of where we live. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @9    2 weeks ago
Sadly, there was a ''huge mistake'' when Israel bombed a DP area and 45 were killed and many more wounded. 

Many people feel that dropping the bomb on Hiroshima-- and Nagasaki-- was also a "huge mistake". Obviously a lot of Japanese civilians were murdered. I used to think that two-- I approved of attacks on Japanese military targets-- but bombing those two cities was a horrendous mistake.

Incidentally I finally researched it, and changed my mind--- probably not a huge mistake at all... I'm not really interested in explaining what I discovered.

(Let's face it--- War is Hell! jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png )

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.3.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @9.3    2 weeks ago

The ''huge mistake'' was Israel bombing an area that they said was a mistake. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.3.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @9.3.1    2 weeks ago

As I have watched the world turn against Israel since Oct 7, now most of it demanding that the Palestinians be rewarded for terrorism, I'm beginning to think that the "big mistake" that Israel made is NOT CARPET-BOMBING ALL OF GAZA ON OCT 8.  Yes, it would have cost innocent lives, and yes, it would have meant the death of the hostages, but it would have prevented the deaths of the IDF soldiers since that time, the release of hudreds of terrorists from Israel prisons, the Houthie blockading the Red Sea, the continuous rain of missiles from the Hezbollah, the rapes and torturing of the hostages, notwithstanding it might not have ended the continuous anti-government protests on the streets in Israel, the pain suffered among the families of the hostages, and what difference would it have made for those in the rest of the world who now are crucifying Israel and rewarding the terrorists, like the United Nations, the International Court of Justice and its prosecutors are doing - it would be no different, no better or worse if such had happened than it is now.  BUT IT WOULD HAVE ENDED HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD IN GAZA IMMEDIATELY.  Down the road, does anyone even THINK about the Dresden carpetbombing, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the murdering of 100,000 civilians in Tokyo?  No, they justify it.  After all, they stopped the war, they saved the lives of others who would die.  Well, in all honestiy, who wants to argue about that?  An army made up of civilized humans and not monsters would have surrendered by now to stop the bloodshed, but not Hamas.  Maybe Israel should have just done what was necessary to stop the war immediately - no humanitarian aid crisis to blame on Israel, no starving civilians to blame on Israel, no screaming out fictional multiples of the actual number of children's and women's deaths to blame on Israel, no more UNRWA teachers training Gazan children to hate Israel and pray for "From the river to the sea", and hey, maybe it might not have become such an issue for an American election.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3.3  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.3.2    2 weeks ago
I'm beginning to think that the "big mistake" that Israel made is NOT CARPET-BOMBING ALL OF GAZA ON OCT 8

Actually there'd probably be no difference if the israelis leveled Gaza-- or if they stopped all fighting, withdrew all forces, and gave Hamas all the nland from the river to the sea. And beyond!

The demonstrations vs Israel would continue, Hamas would still keep firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets... 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.3.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.3.3    2 weeks ago

If they gave Hamas "From the river to the sea", what Israeli targets would there be?  Hey, that rhymes, so maybe it's true.  I think though that people demonstrating against a non-existent Israel would be like demonstrating against the lost continent of Atlantis, would it not?  The people might have to express their innate antisemitism in some other ways, maybe restore and start operating the Nazi death camps again?  Maybe a new world-wide "Spanish Inquisition"?  With its history in that regard it figures that Spain would be a country that would stab Israel in the back these days. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3.5  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.3.4    2 weeks ago
With its history in that regard it figures that Spain would be a country that would stab Israel in the back these days.

I had read an article that Spain, Ireland, and Norway had just recognized a Palestinian state. 
But they are not that well informed because there was this part;

WHAT DID IRELAND, NORWAY SPAIN ANNOUNCE?

The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine.

Prior to 1967 The West bak was part of Jordan (they annexed it in 1950-- before that Jordan merely 'occupied" the West bank.)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3.6  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.3.5    2 weeks ago
with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine

The Arabs will never accept that-- their unyielding position is that Jerusalem be under Arab control and not dhared (or divided) between Arabs and Israel.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.3.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.3.5    2 weeks ago

Isn't there an expression: "You can't fix stupid"?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.3.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.3.6    2 weeks ago

I've been kind of hoping that either a Houthie drone bomb or a missile sent by Hamas would find its way to demolishing the Al Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount (that happens to be the ruins of the Temple of David - wasn't David Jewish?).  The Al Aqsa Mosque is the only Islamic "Holy Site" that is NOT MENTIONED IN THE KORAN.  It's being a "holy site" is just YET ANOTHER of the lies told to and by the Muslims, sort of like the "Israeli" Islamic Jihad bomb that misfired and hit the Gaza Hospital, or the TWICE the number of actual deaths announced by the Hamas Medical staff - They're really good at lying, but they're successful at it because look at all the people, SO MANY PEOPLE, who believe them.

Of course, if Iran were to nuke Israel, they would demolish their "Holy Islamic Al Aqsa Mosque" and earn the outrage of the rest of the world's Islamic "true believers" of the lie.  Allah might then punish them and prevent any of them from being able to deflower their 72 virgins and sojourn forever more in "The Garden of Allah" as a reward for killing all the Jews in Israel (and a lot of other people besides, even in the West Bank, Gaza, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon). 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3.9  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.3.7    2 weeks ago
Isn't there an expression: "You can't fix stupid"?

There was also a variation of that:

There's no cure for 'stuck on stupid'

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10  seeder  Kavika     2 weeks ago

So, what is to be done to stop the fighting and killing? You cannot destroy Hamas or any terrorist organization, it's an ideology, period. 

Unless both sides come to the understanding that neither will ''win the war'' we'll see this same situation 20, 50, 100 years from now. The Palestinians have to denounce Hamas and all other terrorist organizations and set themselves on a path to freedom from terrorism, (much easier said than done) Israel must play their part and they can start with stopping the illegal settlements in the West Bank. I know the argument is that Israel has agreed to this many times and the Palestinians have not, that was the past, there has never been a killing spree like we've seen by Hamas and Israel in the all past wars with no end in sight. Hamas and the damn terrorist organizations need the leadership to put their people first and not as a subservient group with little future. 

A once great warrior and statesman once said with freedom only a few miles away, and one of the great fighting retreats with freedom close by, he knew that they would not make it to the promised land and made the famous quote,

"I will fight no more forever''....

One can only hope that the current leaders follow this course.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @10    2 weeks ago

"So, what is to be done to stop the fighting and killing?"

What do I think?  There are only 2 possibilities:

1.  Hamas can surrender  (not likely)

2.  Israel kills the last standing Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants  (more likely)

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1    2 weeks ago
2.  Israel kills the last standing Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants  (more likely)

Not possible and if it was then what about Hezbollah et al?

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
10.1.2  evilone  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1    2 weeks ago
2.  Israel kills the last standing Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants  (more likely)

Since Israel can't tell the difference between a Hamas member and an regular Palestinian, are you advocating the extermination of a whole people here? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
10.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  evilone @10.1.2    2 weeks ago
Since Israel can't tell the difference between a Hamas member and an regular Palestinian, are you advocating the extermination of a whole people here?

Do you think that Hamas should get a pass since they've chosen to obscure their identification and fail to make a visual  distinction between combatants and civilians. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @10.1.1    2 weeks ago

I accept the fact that it is your opinion that it is not possible, and I know that your opinion is based on the fact that an ideology will not die.  I thought that the 1000 Year Third Reich was an ideology....wasn't it?

As for Hezbollah, once Hamas is done, they're next. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  evilone @10.1.2    2 weeks ago

Well, I'm not an evil one, but it's not Israel's fault that civilians are being killed because Hamas hides among them and uses them as human shields.  Has anyone protested that Hamas started this war, that their hiding among the civilians, using hospitals, schools, mosques, UN facilities as their bases and hiding places for weapons, using civilians as human shields just might be causing a lot of civilian deaths?  Why have we not heard ONE FUCKING PEEP OUT OF ANYBODY ABOUT THAT????  All we hear about are how many children and women are being slaughtered by those "fucking joooz".  

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
10.1.6  evilone  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1.5    2 weeks ago
it's not Israel's fault that civilians are being killed

It's Israelis on the other end of that gun... As I've said many, many times - Israel has the absolute right to protect and defend it's citizens. When it air bombs and rolls tanks it's long past defense and now on offense. 

...Hamas started this war, that their hiding among the civilians, using hospitals, schools, mosques, UN facilities as their bases and hiding places for weapons, using civilians as human shields just might be causing a lot of civilian deaths? 

Again, since one can't tell the difference from a Hamas terrorist and a civilian you seem to be advocating a "kill them all and let Allah sort them out" offensive. I guess you are okay that children and women are being slaughtered as long as they aren't Jews. You can blame it on Hamas and your conscience is clear. All I'm saying is there are no winners here, but the real losers are those dying for being stuck between the two groups.

There are more than a few Jewish people that aren't so comfortable with how Israel is "defending" it's people.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
10.1.7  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1.4    2 weeks ago
As for Hezbollah, once Hamas is done, they're next. 

in the meantime, who's going to permanently deal with the radical religious ultra nationalists in israel?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  evilone @10.1.6    2 weeks ago

Seems to me you feel that Israel is just murdering every person they see in Gaza.  If you really think that is happening then perhaps you should go out and join one of the university anti-Israel protests.  Maybe my personal experiences in Israel have had some effect on my attitude, and I assume you've not had similar experiences in Israel.  However one doesn't have to have experiences in Israel to feel the way I do.  I recall reading that the Governor of New York once said that if Canada were to fire missiles at the USA, there would be no more Canada.  But I guess that it would take a lot more than 9/11 to get you to feel the same.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.1.9  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1.4    2 weeks ago
I thought that the 1000 Year Third Reich was an ideology....wasn't it?

Yes, it is and it is still alive world wide, and it was based on white/Aryan supremacy, and with all of the white nationalist groups active, it still hasn't died.

A lesson more should learn and understand.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @10.1.7    2 weeks ago

How would I know?  I've made it clear over and over that even for personal reasons I have absolutely no love for the "radical religious ultra nationalists in israel" or anywhere, but it has always been my opinion that lands conquered by a defending nation from an attacking nation in a war started by the attacking nation should become the sovereign lands of the defending nation.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @10.1.9    2 weeks ago

Well, then Jew hatred is an ideology as well, and IMO it is universal and eternal and is so well displayed all around the world these days. 

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
10.1.12  evilone  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1.8    2 weeks ago
Seems to me you feel that Israel is just murdering every person they see in Gaza. 

I didn't say that. I said they are no longer defending, but launching an offensive.  I asked you if that was what you were suggesting they do. 

If you really think that is happening then perhaps you should go out and join one of the university anti-Israel protests. 

Interesting... You also seem to think that if one is pro-Palestinian they must be anti-Israeli. It may be the case for some, but everyone. I think most people are like me and just want peace. I've seem several pro-peace marches by Jews in Israel. 

Maybe my personal experiences in Israel have had some effect on my attitude, and I assume you've not had similar experiences in Israel. 

Again this is NOT really about Israel, but about human rights. I support the rights of Israelis and Palestinians equally. Someday they WILL have to learn to live with each other in peace. 

I recall reading that the Governor of New York once said that if Canada were to fire missiles at the USA, there would be no more Canada.

That would be a stupid thing to say, and an even stupider stance for the US to take. I apposed the miliary use in the Middle East when Bush, Jr did it. Again that didn't make the US safer. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.13  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  evilone @10.1.12    2 weeks ago
"I asked you if that was what you were suggesting they do." 

What I suggested is that if Israel had carpet-bombed Gaza on Oct 8 it would have had no more than the same effect as far as the world's attitude about Israel is today when the IDF is doing its best to preserve civilian life in circumstances much different than they were in WW2 where the enemy did NOT hide among the civilians or use them as human shields or make use of civilian facilities for their bases and weapons.   Hardly a peep back then - Israel is being damned to hell for doing much kinder and less today.  Anyone would have to have an IQ less than 50 to not know why. 

I didn't dream that statement about "no more Canada" and I have a pretty good memory for things like that that are hard to believe someone would ever say, but I also know that it was withdrawn almost immediately and there is no way it can be confirmed now. 

 
 

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