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Who gets to claim self-defense in shootings? Airman's death sparks debate over race and gun rights | AP News

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  kavika  •  4 weeks ago  •  67 comments

By:   AARON MORRISON (AP News)

Who gets to claim self-defense in shootings? Airman's death sparks debate over race and gun rights | AP News
The death of Senior Airman Roger Fortson in Florida this month reignited a complicated debate about race, gun laws and self-defense - namely, who is typically afforded deference when it comes to using guns in self-defense and who is not.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


A Florida sheriff released body camera video Thursday showing a deputy outside an apartment door and firing immediately when it was opened by U.S. Air Force Senior Airman Roger Fortson carrying a handgun pointed downward. (AP produced by Javier Arciga)

For the past decade, "Stand Your Ground" laws have been invoked time and time again by gun owners who claim self-defense after carrying out shootings. Critics have denounced them as "shoot first" laws that have created a climate of vigilantism in which gun owners operate with impunity in killing largely Black people.

The concept resurfaced again last week following the killing of Senior Airman Roger Fortson in Florida, but the dynamics were different.

This time, the victim was a young Black servicemember who carried his legally owned handgun to the door of his apartment after hearing banging noises that ended up being a sheriff's deputy. The officer — and not Fortson — opened fire within seconds. His supervisors say he acted in self-defense.

Fortson's legal team was quick to remind the world of his Second Amendment rights in a state that helped popularize "Stand Your Ground" laws after the killing of Trayvon Martin more than a decade ago.

"They teach us in law school about the sanctity of the home, in the United States of America, and how that is your safe haven. That is your castle," civil rights attorney Ben Crump said at a press conference with Fortson's relatives last week.

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"Every one of us, if someone we don't know comes into our house, are going to defend ourselves," Brian Barr, Crump's co-counsel, added. "We have things like Stand Your Ground, the castle doctrine and very strong believers in the Second Amendment in the state of Florida. … He has the right to protect his home."

Fortson's killing sparked a complicated debate about race, gun laws and self-defense — namely, who is typically afforded deference when it comes to the use of guns in self-defense and who is not.

Lauren Krasnoff, president of the Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers' Miami chapter, said Fortson's race cannot be disentangled from discussion of the case when invoking the castle doctrine and Stand Your Ground.

"I think the point is that the law is being used as both a sword and a shield by law enforcement against Black and brown people," Krasnoff said.

"I don't even know that I'd have to say that the airman was standing his ground," she added. "I think he was just acting lawfully. And if a person is acting lawfully and not committing a forcible felony, then you don't have a right to stand your ground."

Florida's Stand Your Ground law protects individuals from prosecution for homicide if they can prove that they perceived an imminent threat of harm or death to themselves or another person, regardless of whether or not they were in their home. The law does not require someone to retreat if they believe that force will be used against them.

The castle doctrine, a common law principle often associated with such laws, allows a person to use force equal to the force being used against them after attempting to retreat in an attack on their home, said David Weinstein, a criminal defense attorney at Jones Walker LLP in Miami.

"It doesn't matter who's on the other side," Weinstein said.

A sheriff's deputy on May 3 shot Fortson after responding to a call about a domestic disturbance at an apartment complex in Fort Walton Beach. Sheriff's officials say the deputy, whose name and race haven't been released, acted in self-defense.

Body cam footage shows the deputy banged on Fortson's door, paused, then knocked again, yelling that he's from the sheriff's office. Fortson eventually answered the door while holding what appeared to be a gun by his side, pointed at the ground. Within a few seconds, the deputy shoots Fortson six times, only then yelling for him to drop his weapon.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating.

Fortson's death quickly drew comparisons to those of other Black people killed in recent years by police in their homes, in circumstances involving officers arriving at the wrong address or responding to service calls with wanton uses of deadly force.

MaCharie Dunbar, an Air Force retiree who serves on the board of the Black Veterans Project, feels Fortson's death surfaces an uncomfortable reality faced by Black Americans who serve their country.

"Many of us are just saddened and angered by the continued unnecessary loss of Black lives at the hands of police," Dunbar said. "And we want to know how many times do police officers have to get it wrong before they do something collectively to get it right?"

The Fortson case also highlighted the dissonance between a Black person's constitutional right to bear arms and law enforcement officers' right to defend themselves against a perceived threat.

"The second amendment afforded Roger the right to own a gun and wield it as protection when he was unsure who was on the other side of his door," Crump said last week.

For Danielle Campbell, the southeast regional director of the National African American Gun Association, what happened to Fortson is the worst-case scenario for Black and brown law-abiding gun owners.

Campbell said she felt Fortson was essentially "murdered in his own home without so much as being given a command" and his death reiterated that for all Black gun owners, "we're just at a high risk, period."

Still, she said striking laws like Stand Your Ground, as Crump has advocated, isn't the answer because they can support gun owners who rightfully discharged their weapons.

"There have been cases where Black and brown people have successfully been able to utilize Stand Your Ground or the castle doctrine to get off," she said. "It's more so that when people of color have interactions with police and they're armed, we're automatically seen as a threat and treated as such."

Some Black Lives Matter activists echoed those sentiments.

Fortson's death is more about how people "see Black and then shoot" than Stand Your Ground laws, said Chelsea Fuller, a communications leader for the Movement for Black Lives, a national coalition of racial justice organizations.

"I don't know how many more research reports have to come out to show there is an innate fear of Blackness in this country," she said.

Fortson, 23, was originally from Georgia and enlisted in the Air Force after graduating from high school. His remains have since been transferred back to Atlanta where he will be eulogized on Friday.

____


AP writer Terry Tang in Phoenix contributed. She and Aaron Morrison are members of AP's Race and Ethnicity team.

AARON MORRISON Morrison runs the Associated Press team covering race and ethnicity in the U.S. and around the world. He previously was a national writer on the AP's race and ethnicity news team.


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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Kavika     4 weeks ago

All are created equal, some more equal than others.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2  sandy-2021492    4 weeks ago

Citing “new evidence,” the family attorney, civil rights lawyer Ben Crump, held a press conference Thursday, pointing to inconsistencies in the sheriff’s version of what happened, maintaining that the deputy who shot Fortson went to the wrong apartment at the Fort Walton Beach complex.

Crump replayed the audio of the police bodycam video, where an unidentified woman at the apartment complex told the deputy about a loud domestic disturbance, but twice said that she was “not sure” where the noise was coming from. After she was asked a third time, she said unit 1401, which was Fortson’s unit.

Sheriff’s records obtained by the Miami Herald on Thursday show that in the 17 months prior to the shooting, there were no calls, complaints or incidents at Fortson’s unit. However, another unit — 1412 — had repeated domestic calls, including a “battery,” several welfare checks and an EMS call for a “hemorrhage” at the unit. Deputies were called 10 times to 1412 since August 2023, records show. It’s not clear from the records whether that unit is in the same building as Fortson’s, but no other unit in the complex had as many complaints.
 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    4 weeks ago

a radio on his hip, a mic on his shoulder, and he can't call dispatch for an address verification. to serve and protect...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  devangelical @2.1    4 weeks ago

One would think.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @2.1    4 weeks ago

What address would dispatch have provided, the initial 911 address?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    4 weeks ago

Sadly, not knowing what apartment had the ''noise'' and not taking the time to double-check and verify we have an innocent young black airman Fortson dead. This is beyond a tragedy.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @2.2    4 weeks ago

unfortunately, no amount of money that gooberville sheriff's dept is forced to pay will bring their son back. I hope the settlement goes to 8 or 9 figures...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    4 weeks ago

What was the room number given during the initial 911 call?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.1  devangelical  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3    4 weeks ago

maybe try calling the sheriff's dept and then let all us know...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.3.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @2.3.1    4 weeks ago

They told me that it’s under investigation.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3  seeder  Kavika     4 weeks ago

Airman Fortson was within his legal rights and was shot dead without warning by a Florida Sheriff. Now it's said that that Sheriff was within his rights. 

If this is the case and both were within their rights, what is the next in the criminal justice system?

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
3.1  Snuffy  replied to  Kavika @3    4 weeks ago

From viewing the video, it does definitely show that Fortson had his gun pointed at the ground, opened the door and the policeman shot within seconds of the door being opened. Before anything else was said and before Fortson made any aggressive moves. The officer should stand trial for this.

But in looking, the courts have stated that Florida's Stand Your Ground law does apply to police.

Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Applies to Police, Too, Court Rules

The court held that  law enforcement officers “are eligible to assert Stand Your Ground immunity, even when the use of force occurred in the course of making a lawful arrest ,” and are immune from criminal prosecution when the facts warrant it. 

Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Applies to Police, Too, Court Rules - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

It's behind a stupid paywall so all I could grab was the headline, the rest of it was on the Google page.

And according to this, you cannot claim the Stand Your Ground defense if you shoot an officer while the officer is acting in an official capacity.

You shoot a law enforcement officer.

Stand your ground does not allow you to use deadly force against a police officer who is acting in an official capacity.

Understanding Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law | Izquierdo Law Firm, P.A. (izlegal.com)

But any way you look at it, this shooting was bad and the officer should have to deal with the consequences. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Snuffy @3.1    4 weeks ago

Were the police making a lawful arrest in this case?  

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
3.1.2  Gsquared  replied to  Snuffy @3.1    4 weeks ago
this shooting was bad and the officer should have to deal with the consequences

That certainly appears to be the case.

Two lives destroyed and the lives of many family members and friends terribly affected.  A very sad situation all the way around.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
3.1.3  Snuffy  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.1    4 weeks ago

From viewing the video, it doesn't appear that he ever tried to make an arrest. He shot within seconds of the door being opened. Not sure why you asked that. Can you provide your thoughts behind asking that?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
3.1.4  Gsquared  replied to  Snuffy @3.1.3    4 weeks ago

Watching the video, within seconds after the door being opened the officer shot five times, and then, after shooting him, he told the victim to drop his gun. By that time the victim was already down and dying.  Real bad.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.5  CB  replied to  Snuffy @3.1    4 weeks ago

Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Applies to Police, Too, Court Rules

MIAMI — Police officers in Florida can avail themselves of the state’s “Stand Your Ground” self-defense law, the State Supreme Court ruled Thursday, offering broader immunity to law enforcement officers in a decision that could make it harder to hold police criminally responsible in disputed shootings.

The court said in its ruling that police officers have the same rights as other Florida citizens who win immunity from prosecution under the law.

“It’s a landmark, ground-marking case,” said Eric Schwartzreich, a lawyer for a sheriff’s deputy involved in the fatal shooting of an African-American man, who successfully argued that police officers should not be excluded from the law’s protections. “It’s the first time Stand Your Ground is used in the state of Florida in reference to police. The implications are wide-ranging.”

Legal analysts said the  ruling  would allow police officers in some cases to avoid jury trials in controversial shootings in which officers believed they were acting in self-defense but might have had other options.

The case before the court stemmed from the 2013 killing of a mentally ill computer engineer who was walking down a street in Oakland Park, north of Fort Lauderdale. The man, Jermaine McBean, 33, had an air rifle slung across his shoulders. As he walked into the apartment complex where he lived, screaming to himself, witnesses called the police.

Three Broward County sheriff’s deputies responded and called for Mr. McBean to drop his weapon. But Mr. McBean, who the investigation showed was listening to music with earbuds, apparently did not hear them. Peter A. Peraza, the deputy charged in the case, claimed that Mr. McBean had turned and pointed the weapon at the officers, in the vicinity of children in a swimming pool, so he fired three shots, killing him.

Witnesses said Mr. McBean never pointed the weapon, and the two other officers did not fire their weapons. Two years later, after a  New York Times examination  of the case, Mr. Peraza was indicted, becoming the first law enforcement officer to be  charged  in an on-duty killing in Florida in decades.

In court, Mr. Peraza asked for Stand Your Ground protection. He won, but the state appealed.

The Fourth District Court of Appeal upheld the ruling, but because the decision conflicted with a prior appellate ruling, the case went to the Florida Supreme Court.

In that earlier case, in 2012, the Second District Court of Appeal had rejected an officer’s attempt to use the law to avoid trial for stomping on a 63-year-old man. The officer, Juan Caamano, a former police officer in Haines City, south of Orlando, instead went to trial, but was acquitted.

Last year, two Miami police officers successfully invoked Stand Your Ground immunity when they were sued for damages in the beating of a man in a wheelchair.

The 2005 law eliminates a person’s duty to retreat from a dangerous situation and frees them to use deadly force “if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary” to prevent harm or death. It shields people from both criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits. The determination is made by a judge after a hearing, and allows the accused to skip a jury trial altogether.

Stand Your Ground became widely known in 2012, when the police in Sanford, Fla., cited it as the reason that they declined to arrest George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who killed an unarmed black teenager, Trayvon Martin. Critics say the law makes it too easy to claim self-defense when violence could have been avoided, and, according to some analyses, has skewed in favor of white defendants as applied in Florida.

The key to the case before the Supreme Court was language in the Florida law specifying that it applies to “any person.”

In some previous cases in Florida, courts have ruled that police officers have their own immunity law that protects them from criminal charges in justified shootings.

But the Supreme Court in its ruling said the language of the law makes it applicable to all.

“Put simply, a law enforcement officer is a ‘person’ whether on duty or off,” the court said.

The court held that law enforcement officers “are eligible to assert Stand Your Ground immunity, even when the use of force occurred in the course of making a lawful arrest,” and are immune from criminal prosecution when the facts warrant it.

Mr. Schwartzreich said the court’s opinion meant that officers could “do their job without fear of indictment or arrest.”

Critics of the law said the decision could be considered a free pass for police officers involved in questionable shootings, and worried that it could disproportionately affect African-Americans and Hispanics. Mr. McBean was black, and Mr. Peraza is Hispanic.

“Police officers already have full immunity to kill us at will. This is an extra bonus on top of that,” said Tifanny Burks, a Black Lives Matter Alliance Broward activist who has been working with Mr. McBean’s family. “It really is a slap in the face — a blatant one at that.”

David I. Schoen, who is representing Mr. McBean’s family in a federal civil rights lawsuit, said the ruling was particularly troubling because it placed too much decision-making power on elected local judges, who often depended on support from police unions to win elections. Invoking Stand Your Ground, Mr. Schoen said, meant a jury in many cases would never get a chance to hear disputed evidence.

“Every unscrupulous law enforcement officer in Florida who kills a civilian now in suspicious circumstances will say he feared for his life, and even with eyewitnesses saying otherwise, he walks and can’t be arrested or charged or brought to trial after this decision,” Mr. Schoen said. “It’s an injustice, it really is.”

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  Snuffy @3.1.3    4 weeks ago
Not sure why you asked that.
The court held that  law enforcement officers “are eligible to assert Stand Your Ground immunity, even when the use of force occurred in the course of making a lawful arrest ,” and are immune from criminal prosecution when the facts warrant it. 

It seems to me that the question of whether they were making a lawful arrest could make or break any case brought against them, even a criminal one.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
3.1.7  Snuffy  replied to  CB @3.1.5    4 weeks ago

Thanks for pasting that out. I saw the headline but I don't subscribe to the New York Times so couldn't get the article.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.8  CB  replied to  CB @3.1.5    4 weeks ago

Well, if they won't change the police standards for stand your ground. . . it's time for informed people to leave the state. Just do it.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
3.1.9  Snuffy  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.6    4 weeks ago

Thanks for explaining. While I think one could reasonably come away with the belief that the officer was acting in an official capacity, from my understanding he did not yet have cause to actually arrest anyone. There had been no investigation at this point, the only information the officer had was the initial call to send him there and the information (misinformation) given by the lady in the parking lot. Add to that from the video where the officer shot within seconds of the door being opened and I don't know if that will stick. We'll have to wait for the full investigation (if we ever get any updates on that) and one can also assume that any police investigation will do their best to stand behind 'their man' to protect a fellow officer. 

While IMO I believe that the officer should be arrested, I think it's more likely that he will not be arrested and only the city will end up paying the family for the death. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.10  sandy-2021492  replied to  Snuffy @3.1.9    4 weeks ago
While IMO I believe that the officer should be arrested, I think it's more likely that he will not be arrested and only the city will end up paying the family for the death.

Sadly, I agree.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.11  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Snuffy @3.1    4 weeks ago

I couldn't access the NYT article either, but all the information available with video the LEO was in the wong.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.12  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Snuffy @3.1.9    4 weeks ago
one can also assume that any police investigation will do their best to stand behind 'their man' to protect a fellow officer. 

The Sheriff deptartment has already said it was a good shooting but hasn't seen if they stepped back on that.

The LEO will walk and the city will pay a large settlement and the the status quo that has been active for decades will move along once again.

This will do nothing to try to mediate and show something to the minority communities. Sadly it's same old same old.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.13  seeder  Kavika   replied to  CB @3.1.5    4 weeks ago

Thanks for posting the NYT article, CB.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.14  CB  replied to  Kavika @3.1.12    4 weeks ago

The thing to do is ASK for a steep SETTLEMENT in the 100s of millions, because it will be a message to the state that human life is valued as priceless, and yet fixable by signifying high value. These are republicans who SAY WITH THERE LIPS that they hold to a culture of life. So I say make them 'live up' to it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  Snuffy @3.1    4 weeks ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
3.1.16  Snuffy  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.15    4 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.1.17  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Snuffy @3.1    4 weeks ago

Hard for the deputy and the department to claim self defense when the deputy's life was not in immediate danger. 

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
3.1.18  Snuffy  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.1.17    4 weeks ago

Agreed. As far as I know, the deputy has not claimed self defense or the use of the Stand-your-ground law. All I posted there was that the courts have ruled that the law is available for both civilians and law enforcement.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
4  Mark in Wyoming     4 weeks ago

Watched the bc video and have a few issues with it. But my opinion is basically the cop fucked up big time and should be charged. It was a bad shoot.

 First issue is from the start of the video and knocking on the door, not once did I hear the cop id themselves as LE.

Second issue, tone, volume and tenor of voice commands such as open the door, the voice I heard sounded more angry and disgruntled than a command voice that is taught to police, think of a military drill sgt firm loud and authoritive, not loud angry and peeved.

Third issue no verifying the address either before contact or while making initial contact.

Can't say I'm impressed with the article itself, but that could be because of my understanding of what stand your ground actually means.

SYG does not grant any immunity, all it means is a person has no duty to retreat if faced with force , before the reciprocate with force. And everyone is covered by both the law and doctrine.

My reasons it's a bad shoot, the cop didn't check off all the boxes one would think need to be positively checked off before use of deadly force can reasonably be used. And for me there are only 3 that need checking , in the video only 2 would have been checked if it had been me.

Through out my military firearm training , military police and civilian LE firearm training to include POST certification, the 3 things that have to be present for use of deadly force , capability the person has to be capable, possibility , they have to possibly be able to take an action, the last thing is intent , that's the one thing that had not been positively been checked off,and holding a firearm in ones hand does not prove intent.

First things I noticed when the individual became visible , handgun in right hand , what appears to be a holster on his left hip, and a closer look at the handgun is it is pointed down and there is NO booger hook on the bang switch. There is no positive indication the intent to shoot is present.

If this had happened during a training exersize with the cop in a shoot/don't shoot stress training ( commonly called Hogan's alley), the cop should have been failed and remeidially trained with additional training until he consistently got it correct .

So let the fun begin with the discussion about this post if there is to be any.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4    4 weeks ago

It was simply a bad shoot for the reasons you named and many more. Hopefully the so called ''investigation'' will find that it was a bad shoot, but if it's the sheriff's dept that won't happen. .

As I said earlier the deputy will walk and the city will settle, nothing will change. I wish it would be different but after 84 years of being a minority in the US I really don't see it happening. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
4.1.1  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Kavika @4.1    4 weeks ago

I will tend to agree, things won't change anytime soon, but as you said my reasons it's a bad shoot are also simply to be combined with those other reasons some other people think are pertinent. I tend to keep it simple, I found it's easier that way.

Now I will put myself in the position of the airman , if it had happened here in the same manner presented I would answer the door in the same manner, but being old school it would have been with my competition 1911a1, cocked , locked , ready to rock in carry condition 1. 1 in the pipe and a full 8 rnd mag.so in this case ild likely be the one getting shot. The only real difference would be my age 62 in 3 days and life experiences and training / practice, safe for me to say , I wouldn't be the only one bleeding, the sec I saw a draw start I would have already have had a round or two in the air, because the opposing individual had already checked the 3 required boxes I needed checked with drawing and pointing, then it's simply an issue of who is faster and more accurate.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.2  CB  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.1.1    4 weeks ago

A BREAKDOWN of the shooting (in part @ 1:37 in the video below) with an important observation I had not 'clocked' until now:

(May be others had.)

Former police captain breaks down bodycam video of Air Force Airman shooting

Did 'anybody' check it. . . . 

The Airman has his gun 'rested' and his other arm up. That 'stance' should have 'triggered' to the officer compliance or 'don't shoot' as it should have been in practiced in officer training. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2  CB  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4    4 weeks ago

Bodycam video shows Florida deputy shoot, kill Air Force Airman

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3  CB  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4    4 weeks ago

Hi Mark, yes, the second time of knocking and before the door opened the deputy Id-ed himself through a closed door.  And, it was a single deputy - in the video I shared, we can hear the deputy ask the woman who issued the apartment number to the officer to send any other LEOs up to the apartment on their arrival. But, he is the only one on point at the time of the door/shooting. Of course, police CAM is recording everything.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
4.3.1  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  CB @4.3    4 weeks ago

I heard the id that time. I will blame my 75-80%deafness and bad audio of the other video.

Frankly I would have waited for another deputy, and likely would have said something along the lines of , investigating a noise complaint, not a total lie,done that before myself , it helps defuse things before things start.

Doesn't change my opinion it was not a good shoot.

This does make me wonder if the YouTube video has been cleaned up a little to filter out ambiant background noise, any and all video and audio can be cleaned up or enhanced to a degree.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3.2  CB  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.3.1    4 weeks ago

It was not a 'good' shoot. One more thing. The way I see these shooting is people don't trust their countrymen and countrywomen sufficient enough to police them or to be served by them. That is, we have to get 'closer' as people in this country by seeing each other as 'countrymen/women' drawn together and stitched together as fabric is done. A family of millions. We have to start giving each other the benefit of some doubt (not all benefit of doubt, but more than we have now). We can not accomplish such a monumental feat of familiarization if we pour 'fuel' on our divisions as people and as a country. 

We need a fundamental shift whereas we begin to see each other as meaningful, valuable, resources to the whole of the country. Again, we can't get that done if we just chip away at our stable foundation that is taking 'hits' around the clock and 365 days from those who are dividing us as a part of a grift-at-large.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
4.3.3  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  CB @4.3.2    4 weeks ago

I think we can agree on that point.

Added. As for the one more thing, the country is diverse enough what you suggest won't happen as for coming together, some people simply like their solitude and to be left alone,you can not force someone to associate with anyone they wish not to AND they have the right to choose whatever reason they want to to make that choice.

We could go down a really big rabbit hole here that would be off topic  for the current discussion ,  I'm not going to do that.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3.4  CB  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.3.3    4 weeks ago

I am not asking anyone to be 'exceptional' or overly indulgent in anyone else's life or lifestyle, what I am driving 'home' here is we are 'drawn together' as a nation of diverse peoples on purpose. For those among us who think that our country is 'full' with 300 million plus people that means we are 'sardines' stacked and packed together for LIFE. It's time we started acting like it (again or) once and for all!

I see the rabbit hole (ahead) and am okay if you steer around it. :)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5  Drinker of the Wry    4 weeks ago

I think it will turn out to be a bad shoot but am willing to wait for the investigation results before forming my final opinion.  If it was a bad shoot for lack of address verification and hasty decision to shoot without giving the airman a chance to comply with instructions to drop the gun, then it may mean race, in this case, was less the issue than the cops, bad decision making.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
5.1  afrayedknot  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    4 weeks ago

“…wait for the investigation results…”

And therein lies the problem. Internal investigations are important, but the conflict of interest is apparent.

Every judicial district should have an independent investigative body seated with community stakeholders that is called in when incidents such as this inevitably occur. And in their independence, perhaps the results of the investigations will not only determine an unbiased finding of ultimate responsibility, but more importantly, will also lead to a course of action that will mitigate and minimize future occurrences. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  afrayedknot @5.1    4 weeks ago
And therein lies the problem. Internal investigations are important, but the conflict of interest is apparent.

The ongoing investigation is a state investigation, not local.  There will be a federal if the Feds think it’s necessary.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
5.1.2  afrayedknot  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.1    4 weeks ago

“…is a state investigation…”

Which in no way diminishes the point responded to…in fact and function, it only reinforces it..,,particularly in this state at this present time. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  afrayedknot @5.1.2    4 weeks ago
Which in no way diminishes the point responded to…in fact and function, it only reinforces it..,,particularly in this state at this present time. 

We will have to wait to see if the Feds agree with you.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
6  Greg Jones    4 weeks ago

"I think the point is that the law is being used as both a sword and a shield by law enforcement against Black and brown people," Krasnoff said."

I agree that the deputy appeared to be trigger happy and this is really a bad shoot, but I doubt that race had anything to do with it. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1  devangelical  replied to  Greg Jones @6    4 weeks ago
I doubt that race had anything to do with it

oh heavens no, not in the south... /s

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @6.1    4 weeks ago
oh heavens no, not in the south
  • Wright killed in Minneapolis 
  • Hill killed in Columbus OH
  • Ellis killed in Tacoma WA
  • Prude killed in Rochester NY
  • Floyd killed in Minneapolis 
  • Rosser killed in Ann Arbor 
  • Clark killed in Sacramento 
  • Castile killed in Falcon Heights MN
  • Grey killed in bright blue Baltimore 
  • Garner killed in NYC
  • Gurley killed in Brooklyn 
  • Nevarez killed In Sacramento 
  • Rice killed in Cleveland 
  • Anderson killed in Cleveland

Just a few of the recent Blacks killed in vicious, right-wing, cracker Southern cities.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.1.1    4 weeks ago
Blacks
  • dead giveaway
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @6.1.2    4 weeks ago

Damn Confederates seem to be everywhere.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @6.1.2    4 weeks ago

Which shows how prevalent it is EVERYWHERE and not just in southern cities and that is an extremely gross under-representation of blacks being killed for being black

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @6.1.2    4 weeks ago

The hatred towards Baltimore sickens me

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @6.1.2    4 weeks ago

Note how Baltimore is highlighted?  That's not by accident.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.1.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @6.1    4 weeks ago

especially not in Florida! /s

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.1.8  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.7    3 weeks ago

well, at least the klan have standardized uniforms now...

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
6.1.9  George  replied to  devangelical @6.1.8    3 weeks ago

Yep,

000_1T33FJ-e1591631484869.jpg

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
6.1.10  Gsquared  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.1.3    2 weeks ago
Damn Confederates seem to be everywhere.

Confederates and Confederate sympathizers.  Haven't you ever seen the Confederate flag displayed outside the area of the Confederacy?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.1.11  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @6.1.10    2 weeks ago
Haven't you ever seen the Confederate flag displayed outside the area of the Confederacy?

Sure, California might be the worst example.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
6.1.12  Gsquared  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.1.11    2 weeks ago

California had a significant percentage of pro-Confederate residents during the Civil War.  I believe that estimates are up to 20%.  Unfortunately, with such large population, there are bound to be a few lunatics today.  Look at how many people in California voted for Trump.  Whether more Confederate flags get displayed in California than any other location outside the area of the Confederacy, is, of course, mere speculation.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.2  CB  replied to  Greg Jones @6    4 weeks ago

Greg, at the least it is implicit bias. I have seen too many videos where white police officers 'talk' to people with guns in their hands or "all around them."  There was no obvious need to shoot this young man within mere seconds of seeing a gun held in a downward pointing state. We have seen enough officer training footage around where training teaches future and present officers to make proper 'snap' judgements depending on the posture of a weapon on another person in determining hostility or not.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Professor Participates
7  Snuffy    2 weeks ago

Good news for this old thread. The deputy who shot the airman has been fired after the investigation by the Sheriffs office determined that the use of deadly force was not reasonable. What should happen next is that Mr. Duran should be arrested for murder.

A Florida   sheriff's deputy   who shot and killed an   Air Force   service member in his home earlier this month has been fired. 

The Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office said Deputy Eddie Duran was terminated after an administrative investigation found his use of deadly force was "not objectionably reasonable" in the death of Roger Fortson, a news release states. 

"The objective facts of the administrative investigation concluded that Mr. Fortson did not make any hostile, attacking movements, and therefore, the former deputy’s use of deadly force was not objectively reasonable under OSCO’s [Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office] policy," it said. 

Florida sheriff's deputy who shot and killed airman is fired | Fox News

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.1  CB  replied to  Snuffy @7    2 weeks ago

Thank you. May this young man rest in peace after receiving some vindication from the agency responsible for the man who killed him. Law enforcement should not be killing innocent people. People who are weak-minded or even power-driven should not be in professions where life and death are decided sometimes in 'quick-time.' The civil case will happen. A large payout will take place as it should. The airman will not receive any of the outcome. Roger Fortson will simply rest (better) in peace—rhetorically-speaking!

I agree a criminal trial should occur. This is a situation primed for looking into the background of this former police officer (and do not let him go to another policing or security outlet/outfit).

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Snuffy @7    2 weeks ago

And now he should be arrested and charged. 

Shortly after this incident, another one in Alaska took place.

Thanks for posting this Snuffy.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
7.3  Gsquared  replied to  Snuffy @7    2 weeks ago

That is very good news. 

Airman Fortson's family deserves justice.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
8  CB    2 weeks ago

He should be arrested and charged. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9  Drinker of the Wry    2 weeks ago

It’s much better and less derisive to let the investigation play out before folks here begin their speculation.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
9.1  Gsquared  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9    2 weeks ago

You're too late.

 
 

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