╌>

Battles rage around Rafah’s edge as more than 100,000 flee the city

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  2 weeks ago  •  214 comments

By:   Story by Louisa Loveluck

Battles rage around Rafah’s edge as more than 100,000 flee the city
The brewing offensive in Rafah has already strained Israel’s relationship with Washington, and President Biden this week threatened to halt the flow of U.S. offensive weapons to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) if it charged into the city. But U.S. and Israeli officials both say the military has enough munitions to attack Rafah without U.S. support.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Heavy fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian militants raged east of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday, as terrified residents jammed roads out of the city, many of them fleeing once again for their lives without any guarantees that they would find safety.

The Israeli military said it was engaged in a “precise counterterrorism operation” in eastern Rafah, on the outskirts of the city, and that it had “eliminated several terror cells during close-quarters combat” and in an airstrike. Doctors at the area’s few remaining hospitals said most of the wounded arriving at their wards were children.

At least 110,000 people have fled Rafah as Israel’s bombardment there intensifies, according to U.N. agencies, and the closure this week of two main entry points for aid has accelerated the humanitarian crisis in southern Gaza. Hamish Young, senior emergency coordinator for the U.N. children’s agency in Gaza, said he had seen civilians packed into buses, trucks, cars and donkey carts, all stuffed with what possessions the families — already displaced multiple times — had left.

Israel for months said it planned to pursue Hamas militants in Rafah, on the border with Egypt, framing any offensive there as necessary to its goal of eliminating the group. It launched what it said was a limited operation to seize the Rafah border crossing on Tuesday. But aid agencies and the United Nations, as well as Israel’s closet allies, have all warned against a full-scale invasion of the city, saying the toll on the more than 1 million people sheltering there would be nothing short of catastrophic.

Nearly 35,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza in the months-long war, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, and Israeli airstrikes have already leveled large swaths of the north. Famine is looming across the territory and in some areas, the United Nations says, it has already arrived.

In a speech to the U.N. General Assembly on Friday, Palestinian envoy Riyad Mansour said that “no words” could adequately convey the trauma and loss experienced in Gaza and the occupied West Bank over the past seven months.

The conflict began Oct. 7 when Hamas-led militants stormed southern Israel, killing around 1,200 people and dragging more than 250 others back to Gaza as hostages. As Israel bombarded and besieged the coastal territory, extremist Jewish settlers in the West Bank stepped up attacks on Palestinian communities there.

On Friday, the 193-member U.N. General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to expand the rights and privileges of the Palestinian observer mission and endorsed its bid for full membership. The United States voted against the resolution, and Israeli representative Gilad Erdan took to the podium with a small pocket shredder to destroy a copy of the U.N. charter in opposition of the vote.

The brewing offensive in Rafah has already strained Israel’s relationship with Washington, and President Biden this week threatened to halt the flow of U.S. offensive weapons to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) if it charged into the city. But U.S. and Israeli officials both say the military has enough munitions to attack Rafah without U.S. support.

As battles were underway in eastern Rafah on Friday, the U.S.-based MedGlobal aid group said medics and journalists were unable to reach the area, making it difficult to assess the nature and intensity of the fighting.

Over the past few days, the largest hospital and multiple field clinics have evacuated staff and patients and closed their doors as the fighting ramped up. Israel shuttered two border crossings, including Rafah and Kerem Shalom, which was attacked by Hamas militants.

“For three consecutive days, nothing and no one has been allowed in or out of Gaza,” Martin Griffiths, the U.N. undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs, said Thursday. Civilians, he said, “are being starved and killed, and we are prevented from helping them.”


His office said Friday that eight U.N.-supported bakeries in southern Gaza had already ceased operations. In Rafah’s Emirati Hospital, a sanctuary for pregnant women and babies through seven months of conflict, doctors said Friday that fuel reserves would likely run out after 48 hours.

“If fuel does not enter immediately, the lights will turn off. Generators will stop running. Incubators will fail. Babies will die,”  Dorotea Gucciardo of Glia , a volunteer medical aid group with personnel on the ground, said in a statement.

Reached by phone in Rafah, Asma Suleiman, 38, described the situation before her as “terrifying in every sense of the word.” She said the sound of shelling was constant; the streets were empty as people stayed indoors; and her family was having trouble finding food and water.

Residents in Rafah said prices for basic goods have soared in recent days as people stockpile what they can and resources grow scarce.


Negotiations to halt the fighting and free hostages still in captivity in Gaza have stalled, after the latest round of talks in Cairo ended without a breakthrough. Hamas said Friday that it would begin consultations with other Palestinian factions to “reconsider” its negotiating strategy.

“The attack on Rafah will not be a picnic, and Gaza will always be a cemetery for the occupying invaders,” the group said in a statement.

The IDF said Friday that sirens had sounded in the area of Be’er Sheva, a city in Israel’s Negev desert, after militants fired nine rockets from the Rafah area. They fell in open areas, and no casualties were reported.

Fighting also flared in northern Gaza on Friday, after the IDF returned to the Zeitoun neighborhood of Gaza City, saying its forces carried out “targeted raids” on “terrorist infrastructure,” and killed a number of militants.


The IDF said that four soldiers were killed by an explosive device during the operation.

Mahmoud Bassal, a spokesman for Gaza’s civil defense force, said around 20 Palestinians were killed in the fighting in Gaza City, and that paramedics had been unable to reach some of the bodies.

“As we speak, there are sounds of bombing and Apache helicopters firing in the southern areas of Gaza City,” Bassal said. “We are uncertain about the nature of the army’s activities in the area, but some residential buildings have been bombed.”

Hazem Balousha in Amman and Cate Brown in Washington contributed to this report.


Tags

jrDiscussion - desc
[]
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    2 weeks ago

They finally decided to leave.

I agree with that.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ronin2  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    2 weeks ago

110,000 out of a couple of million. 

Where again are they expected to go? Rafah was the last refuge that wasn't bombed out that aid could reach.

From you the article you seeded:

As battles were underway in eastern Rafah on Friday, the U.S.-based MedGlobal aid group said medics and journalists were unable to reach the area, making it difficult to assess the nature and intensity of the fighting.

Over the past few days, the largest hospital and multiple field clinics have evacuated staff and patients and closed their doors as the fighting ramped up. Israel shuttered two border crossings, including Rafah and Kerem Shalom, which was attacked by Hamas militants.

“For three consecutive days, nothing and no one has been allowed in or out of Gaza,” Martin Griffiths, the U.N. undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs, said Thursday. Civilians, he said, “are being starved and killed, and we are prevented from helping them.”

His office said Friday that eight U.N.-supported bakeries in southern Gaza had already ceased operations. In Rafah’s Emirati Hospital, a sanctuary for pregnant women and babies through seven months of conflict, doctors said Friday that fuel reserves would likely run out after 48 hours.

“If fuel does not enter immediately, the lights will turn off. Generators will stop running. Incubators will fail. Babies will die,”   Dorotea Gucciardo of Glia  , a volunteer medical aid group with personnel on the ground, said in a statement.

Reached by phone in Rafah, Asma Suleiman, 38, described the situation before her as “terrifying in every sense of the word.” She said the sound of shelling was constant; the streets were empty as people stayed indoors; and her family was having trouble finding food and water.

Residents in Rafah said prices for basic goods have soared in recent days as people stockpile what they can and resources grow scarce.

Sounds like Israel doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians- nothing new there.

Just so no one accuses me- Hezbollah, Hamas, the PA, Iran, and US don't give a shit about the Palestinians either.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1    2 weeks ago

How about Israel transporting them to the West Bank?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
1.1.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1    2 weeks ago

No one cares about them, that has been obvious for decades. Notice how not a single neighboring Arab nation has offered to take in any refugees in any meaningful number? 

At the end of the day Israel is trying to root out Hamas, and they have to go where Hamas is which is Rafah. The Israelis have little choice. Stopping now means we will be right back here in another 10-15 years.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.1.2    2 weeks ago
No one cares about them, that has been obvious for decades. Notice how not a single neighboring Arab nation has offered to take in any refugees in any meaningful number? 

Even Arab college kids aren’t out protesting and chanting “From the river to the sea”.

The Arab nations have had it with this set of multigenerational, professional refugees.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2  Sean Treacy    2 weeks ago

Biden talking about Israel's right to defend itself when attack in 2006..

Besides his complete shift in favor of Hamas, it's jarring to see the difference in Biden's ability to talk. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1  CB  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    2 weeks ago

Please show Biden's shift in favor of Hamas. Proceed. . . .  

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
2.1.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  CB @2.1    2 weeks ago
Please show Biden's shift in favor of Hamas. Proceed. . . .  

You don't think Biden threatening to not supply some arms Israel is asking for and telling Israel not to attack Rafah is not what Hamas wants?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.2  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @2.1.1    2 weeks ago
show Biden's shift in favor of Hamas.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Right Down the Center @2.1.1    2 weeks ago
telling Israel not to attack Rafah is not what Hamas wants?

Hamas wants Israel to attack Rafah. because of course there will be casualties, deaths, etc. That what Hamas wants. The more bloodshed the better (Better for Hamas)

Why?

Because it gets them worldwide sympathy. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2.1.4  Sean Treacy  replied to  Krishna @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

Lol.  By that logic, Israel should arm Hamas, open its borders and  refuse to defend itself.  The slaughter of Israelis will really make Hamas look bad. What a win for Israel!

This is the the sort of the most oppressed “wins” thinking that’s caused elite students immersed in left wing ideology  to win cheer fro Hamas. 

hamas wants to  destroy israel. Having its military capabilities wiped out is the last thing it wants.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.4    2 weeks ago
hamas wants to  destroy israel. Having its military capabilities wiped out is the last thing it wants.

Well, then Hamas chose …… poorly ….. again

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2.1.6  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

Not to mention it breeds the next generation of terrorists from those that manage to make it through alive.

They might not call themselves Hamas- but the seeds for their formation will be laid by what is going on now.

It may take 5 or 10 years; but this stupid fucking dance must go on- and we must waste billions of more dollars supporting it.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
2.1.7  Thrawn 31  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.4    2 weeks ago

You mistake thinking that preserving its military capabilities and keeping Palestinian civilians alive are the same thing. High civilian casualties was a central aspect of Hamas’s strategy. They wanted to see the public opinion result that unfortunately the rest of the world is giving them. 

Hamas really couldn’t give less of a shit about the Palestinians, every dead kid is a win for them. Their goal has never been making the lives of Palestinians better. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2.1.8  Sean Treacy  replied to  Thrawn 31 @2.1.7    2 weeks ago
istake thinking that preserving its military capabilities and keeping Palestinian civilians alive are the same thing.

No.  I think Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region. I do them the courtesy of  believing  their words. Everything it does is to achieve that goal and they have no problem exploiting civilian deaths in pursuit of that.  But "Bad PR" isn't the end goal of Hamas's dead civilian strategy. Or money.  Or to "produce another generation of hate."  They've already turned their "schools" with the help of the UN into Jew hating terrorist indoctrination centers.  Those things are constants no matter what Israel does. 

The point of promoting dead civilians in the international media is to cause (or give countries who already support them an excuse) to pressure Israel not to retaliate and protect their military assets so they can continue the war. 

mas really couldn’t give less of a shit about the Palestinians, every dead kid is a win for them. Their goal has never been making the lives of Palestinians better.

I agree. But its only a win if Biden and others give it to them by pressuring Israel to let up.  If Biden actually lived up to his promises and was rock solid behind Israel all of Hamas's PR ploys would be meaningless.   

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3  Greg Jones    2 weeks ago

 "Doctors at the area’s few remaining hospitals said most of the wounded arriving at their wards were children."

Why are they still in harm's way? Doesn't Hamas care about its children??

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1  CB  replied to  Greg Jones @3    2 weeks ago

Well the United States cares about children. Could of fooled me as we are wholly told that some conservatives care about children and youths more than any liberals. Obviously, it depends on the children. This is pathetic, especially for Christians to champion the killing of (non-combatant) children anywhere in the world.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  CB @3.1    2 weeks ago
Christians to champion the killing of (non-combatant) children

Please show where Christians champion the killing of (non-combatant) children

Proceed

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.2    2 weeks ago

Israelis await it as well.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2  Krishna  replied to  Greg Jones @3    2 weeks ago
Doesn't Hamas care about its children??

No-- they don't care about human life or human suffering. They are fanatics-- all they care about is their cause (a judenfrei Middle East).

Why do you think Arab terrorist groups have so many people willing to get themselves murdered by doing suicide bombings? (It may be hard for us to grasp, but suicide bombers actually believe if they die "fighting to defend Islam" (their interpretation)-- they are guaranteed a place in Paradise.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3.3  Ronin2  replied to  Greg Jones @3    2 weeks ago

Where are they supposed to go?

Gaza is completely destroyed.

Running to the desert is not an option at this point; and there is no shelter, food, medical supplies, or anything else there.

One spot is as good as another in Gaza to die- at least in Rafah they have some type of shelter; and whatever food and supplies they managed to scrape together.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
3.4  Thrawn 31  replied to  Greg Jones @3    2 weeks ago

NOPE.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4  CB    2 weeks ago

The fallout from killing civilians will affect attitudes and generations to come against Israel. Evangelicals supporting the slaying of non-combatants in this day and age should be ashamed of themselves . In any case, this is not Dresden or Hiroshima or Nagasaki . . . this is the 'new age' of modern warfare. . . we know better and when we do know, we should do better.

I repeat: killing innocent civilians: men, women, children, disabled, pregnant women, handicapped, mentally retarded— anybody who is in the category of "non-combat" simply because they can't get out of the way. . . is little to no more different than what Hamas did in its wrongful invasion of Israel. 

I would be lying if I pretended this is not a problem for me about the region. 

Hamas should be dealt with even if it is accomplished brutally. However, when Israel kills more or as many civilians as it kills Hamas agents and officials . . . Israel loses the higher narrative. It will pay a steep cost when the world shifts ( it is beginning already) and respect is lowered or 'gone.' 

For example: José Andrés, the renowned chef, restaurateur, and founder of the nonprofit organization  World Central Kitchen (WCK) has developed a position that Israel is no longer fighting against Hamas. . . but as attacking humanity, and unforgivable. That is a 'red flag.' 

José Andrés: Israel Is Conducting a 'War Against Humanity Itself' (rollingstone.com)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1  Krishna  replied to  CB @4    2 weeks ago
. we know better

Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

We know better?

Do you?

How many people know about the Rape of Nanking?

Do you know about that?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @4.1    2 weeks ago
. we know better
Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

We know better?

Do you?

How many people know about the Rape of Nanking?

Do you know about that?

"We know better"?

Really? Many people think they know more than they do.

Do "We" know about Unit 731?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
4.1.2  Gsquared  replied to  Krishna @4.1    2 weeks ago

I've been to Nanjing.  I spent a few day there.  It's a very nice city.  They have a beautiful large park sponsored by the Japanese as a way of expressing their contrition for what they did.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.3  CB  replied to  Krishna @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
this is the 'new age' of modern warfare. . . we know better and when we do know, we should do better.

Evolve all damn ready. Sometimes it is necessary to personalize things for added clarity: You would not want anybody to rape or bomb family members, extended family members, or friends you know and love . . . so this bull about looking at what others have done in the past. . . when IGNORANCE about a great many 'things' was active does not mean you should 'rest' and take comfort. . . killing those civilians in the past in such numbers was IGNORANT for a "thousand years" and with today's modernity nations can do better. . . even if it means taking more time and more expenditures. . . right is right. . .wrong is wrong. . .and finally. . .

I know damn well you are not telling me that murdering civilians or "townspeople" who have not declared war, but find themselves caught up in one is OKAY. I just know you are not telling ME that! I ain't buying it. 

If you want to discuss this-come again and let's do it.

People should not have to love or forgive other people for killing their families and friends—and labeling it "collateral damage."  No, for the INFORMED its murder.

In the Gaza/Israel war. . . Israel would say and feel the same way about the killing of (more of its) non-combatant civilians when their families and friends are killed! In fact, it is why they are at war now. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.3    2 weeks ago
even if it means taking more time and more expenditures.

It isn't the money, it is the cost of Israeli lives at stake. Something surely to increase with "right is right. . .wrong is wrong. . " malarkey with nary an idea of how to do it. The longer it takes Israel to end Hamas, the more Israeli lives will be lost.

All the platitudes and 'feel good stuff" aside, I don't see much point in talking much to people sworn to end your existence as a nation and as a people, people who have broken every single peace agreement or cease-fire agreement made, and done hideous things to Israel and her people. It serves no purpose.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.5  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.4    2 weeks ago

The solution to killing an ideology can't be killing/murdering them all. That is not going to happen. So that is a non-starter. We have to turn to another alternative. At the end of the day, these two people still stuck together by land and borders will have to exist together! 

Its for them to do the hard work to make their "states" homogenous or relatively acceptable. Or, hostilities will continue with a new generation of hatred for each other.

And you can call it feel good stuff all you want; nobody is killing anything (wholesale) essential to your life! Because "suddenly" feel good will make all the sense in the world!

All Palestinians are not fighters. And though I can't prove it, I do not think I have read that innocent Palestinians with 'clean' hands want Israel to 'go away.'

Yes, of course, their are hardliners and lest I miss them-terrorists whom promote Israel's destruction. The two "countries" are in a unique situation. The two people literally hate being stuck side-by-side to each other. 

I don't weigh in on that.

To be clear. The October 7, 2023 attack needs to be answered. It has been answered—Gaza is 'brought down low' and in rubbles (if our view through our tv sets is believable). Proportionality means that limits and 'caps' should be on the destruction of the cities and Gazans. It is unacceptable for a superior fighting force to 'wail' on a lesser people and speak about it dismissively when asked to confine its attacks on the GUILTY and let the INNOCENT go free and alone.

There is a great wrong occurring in the Middle East. . . I can not fix their living arrangement-its a "peculiar" problem for Palestinians and Jews. . .but I can state unequivocally that killing unarmed women and children; the disabled, the mentally kill, the elderly, the Infirm, and pregnant women. . . will not win friends for either side on this 'forever' crisis sustained by the two peoples. Whom history states are related by blood!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.6  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
It isn't the money, it is the cost of Israeli lives at stake. Something surely to increase with "right is right. . .wrong is wrong. . " malarkey with nary an idea of how to do it. The longer it takes Israel to end Hamas, the more Israeli lives will be lost.

I listened to an Israeli military spokesman last night on cable news. . . he stated: 'Israel is trying hard to reduce/minimize civilian deaths and the world should understand that if Israel wanted to kill civilians. . . this war would have been over in three days'!

But, that is the issue here: killing civilians can cause and has caused worldwide condemnation of Israel, because what is happening is simply too much for humanity to agree to "stomach." 

At some point, Israel will have to devise a way to get to Hamas' leadership and its "battalions" while leaving other Gazans out of frame.

Human shields. Nobody is offering themselves to be shields for Hamas so it is highly probable that Gazans are hostages in need of 'deliverance' from their captors. Yet another reason why they should not be bombed in a manner that appears to be wholesale slaughter. 

If Israeli soldiers and human 'might' must die to defend themselves against combatants, then it should be so. Civilians are not killing Israelis- it is Hamas. Hamas has been identified as the culprits which stirred up a war!  Find Hamas and its "agents" and kill. Leave the innocent to rebuild what is left laying in the dust and bombed back to the 'stone age.'

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1.7  Ronin2  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
It isn't the money,

BS. If you think Israel is losing money over concern for Palestinian civilians you are deluded.

it is the cost of Israeli lives at stake. 

What Israeli lives are those? Hamas took their best shot; and could only get 1,200 Israelis and those they took captive.

The longer it takes Israel to end Hamas, the more Israeli lives will be lost.

Fuck Palestinian lives. They never mattered to begin with. Just look at the West Bank that had nothing to do with Oct 7. Why the fuck is Israel cracking down on them?

There have been 794 settler attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank since Oct. 7 — from stones thrown at passing cars to bullets fired at residents, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. At least 10 Palestinians have been killed by settlers in these attacks, it said.

Attacks by settlers   aren’t the only form of violence   on the rise in the West Bank.

Since the war in Gaza began, nearly 500 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire in the territory, according to the Health Ministry based in Ramallah, which says the overwhelming majority have been shot dead by soldiers. Palestinians in the West Bank have killed nine Israelis, including five soldiers, since Oct. 7, according to U.N. data.

The war has undoubtedly heightened tensions between settlers and Palestinians. But Israeli human rights groups blame the far-right government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for fueling settler violence by promoting   an ideology of total Israeli supremacy in the West Bank .

These groups say the Israeli army doesn’t do enough to stop the violence, and even facilitates it in some cases by offering the settlers protection. The Israeli army said in a statement it tries to protect everyone living in the West Bank and that complaints about soldiers are investigated.

Do you support the right of the West Bank Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli settler and IDF aggression? They are defending their land and people. The Israelis are the clear invader. Why is the US supporting this?

All the platitudes and 'feel good stuff" aside, I don't see much point in talking much to people sworn to end your existence as a nation and as a people

So you agree that Palestinians should stop talking to Israel then. Since Israel isn't just talking about ending the Palestinians- they are taking concrete steps to do it in the West Bank.

 people who have broken every single peace agreement or cease-fire agreement made, and done hideous things to Israel and her people. It serves no purpose.

Leaving out that Israel has broken every last peace agreement in the West Bank. Remember the West Bank and Gaza are not connected in any way shape or form. Israel has seen to that. 

I am sick of US money going to Israel, PA, Hamas, Iran, Iraq, Syrian rebels, Kurds, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and every other country in the most dysfunctional sand box in the world. WTF does it do besides bring more conflict, death, and a rising promise of a future terrorist attack on US soil?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.8  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.5    2 weeks ago
The solution to killing an ideology can't be killing/murdering them all.

No one said it would be the solution, but it would definitely result in fewer Israeli deaths.

We have to turn to another alternative.

yet not a single alternative that could possibly work is ever mentioned.

Thinking that terrorists and Israelis can peacefully co-exist isn't grounded in reality. Sounds all flowery and so grand, though, so I will give you credit for painting a rosy, feel good picture, even though it's just fantasy.

Proportionality is no way to run a war--it is downright IGNORANT.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.6    2 weeks ago
At some point, Israel will have to devise a way to get to Hamas' leadership and its "battalions" while leaving other Gazans out of frame.

yeah, so many seem to want to hold Israel to a different standard but NO ONE ever has any ideas how to do it AND protect Israeli lives, so your wishlist argument falls flat and fails.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.7    2 weeks ago
BS. If you think Israel is losing money over concern for Palestinian civilians you are deluded.

You should read what I write in context.

What Israeli lives are those? Hamas took their best shot; and could only get 1,200 Israelis and those they took captive.

Well, I keep up with the news and have heard reports for years of terrorists firing missiles onto Israeli civilians. Perhaps you even remember hearing something of it.

Fuck Palestinian lives

Okay. When you lie down with dogs, you may very well get fleas.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.11  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.8    2 weeks ago

Your condescending bull is noted. If/since you can't be reasoned with or expected to talk to me like I try to do with you I'm out.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.12  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.9    2 weeks ago

I am holding Israel to the same standard. If Israel is in a war with Hamas (not the Palestinian people) because 1200 regular Israeli civilians were killed, then it makes no sense to kill 30,000 plus Palestinian civilians. It's not hard to understand if one is not being intentionally biased against Palestinians. 

Hamas are the combatants. Find Hamas terrorists-individually and collectively deal with the terrorists. That is, no one has clearly categorized the entirety of the Gazan population as terrorists!

Leave the Palestinians people to their 'pipe dreams,' dreams, and aspirations for a better future (without Hamas). 

But trying to ignore the elephant in the room that Gaza is a 'wasteland' right now and its people are in dire humanitarian straits because of a war raging in their streets, bombs falling, and death and destruction won't change the fact that Israel may be guilty of doing too much! 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.13  Sparty On  replied to  CB @4.1.12    2 weeks ago

You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Palestinians elected Hamas.    They own their situation with Hamas.

They own it.

Bravo for the restraint Israel has shown since they were so mercilessly sneak attacked by Palestine’s leaders.    Bravo!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.12    2 weeks ago
I am holding Israel to the same standard. If Israel is in a war with Hamas (not the Palestinian people) because 1200 regular Israeli civilians were killed, then it makes no sense to kill 30,000 plus Palestinian civilians.

No, you fail to make some relevant distinctions. When Hamas kills Israeli civilians like last Oct or during the Intifadas, it's not because the IDF is hiding behind civilians.  When the IDF kills Palestinians, it's because Hamas wears no uniform, hides among civilians, fires weapons from residential buildings, schools and hospitals. 

It's not hard to understand if one is not being intentionally biased against Palestinians. 

Please, no condescension. 

Hamas are the combatants. Find Hamas terrorists-individually and collectively deal with the terrorists. 

The IDF has destroyed at least 70% to 80% of the Hamas arsenal, but perhaps only about 50% of the tunnels.  Hamas began with around 30,000 soldiers and has around 12,000 left.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.15  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.12    2 weeks ago
30,000 plus Palestinian civilians

Do you think that all 30,000+ were killed by Israelis?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.16  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.12    2 weeks ago
I am holding Israel to the same standard.

Yet, in spite of that dubious claim, never have I once seen you demand of Hamas and Palestinians what you demand of Israel. I don't think you hold the same standards whatsoever.

Hamas are the combatants. Find Hamas terrorists-individually and collectively deal with the terrorists. That is, no one has clearly categorized the entirety of the Gazan population as terrorists!

once again, demanding Israel do something you never demand Hamas do and no solution offered up at all--you just want Israel to do things differently without describing what it is you expect from them while achieving the goal.

Leave the Palestinians people to their 'pipe dreams,' dreams, and aspirations for a better future (without Hamas). 

We have. look what it accomplished. Hamas has had control for over 17 YEARS. Palestinians have chosen to accept Hamas.

Stupid decision. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.11    2 weeks ago
Your condescending bull is noted. If/since you can't be reasoned with or expected to talk to me like I try to do with you I'm out.

Your choice. Sorry if I spoke some inconvenient truths to you.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.18  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.14    2 weeks ago
Hamas are the combatants. Find Hamas terrorists-individually and collectively deal with the terrorists. 

This 'suggestion' gets bandied all about.

But you know what has NEVER accompanied that call?

A plan that would work to end Hamas.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.19  CB  replied to  Sparty On @4.1.13    2 weeks ago
You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Please, tell that to dog owners.

It may be convenient for you to dismiss the death of civilians, even though I am pretty sure you would speak up for the death of conservatives you value—well, lives count across the board here—on both sides

I need not explain to you (you can discern for yourself) that elections do bring into power people not approved of by every voter. For example: Netanyahu is not a 100 percent choice of the Jewish people in Israel. And, of course, Joe Biden is not supported by 74 million plus U.S. citizens.

Stop with the easily debunked statements, please. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.20  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.19    2 weeks ago

The very simple fact is that Palestinians voted more for Hamas than any other group.

Well, that, and have done absolutely nothing to denounce Hamas or get rid of them. Palestinians are useful tools for Hamas.

Hard to feel sorry for folks supporting terrorists, but I see some can manage it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.21  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.14    2 weeks ago
When the IDF kills Palestinians, it's because Hamas wears no uniform, hides among civilians, fires weapons from residential buildings, schools and hospitals. 

Easy enough. When there are civilians around-fire at the ones holding weapons that can cause harm: Injury and death. To be clear, you can't stand off at "superior" distances and fire indiscriminately if you are only after Hamas agents.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.22  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.19    2 weeks ago
well, lives count across the board here—on both sides. 

So, All Lives Matter? I've heard that could be considered racist. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.23  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.15    2 weeks ago

Don't ask me: Ask those doing the reporting. I don't live anywhere approximate to the Middle East or Israel and Gaza.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.24  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.21    2 weeks ago
Easy enough. When there are civilians around-fire at the ones holding weapons that can cause harm: Injury and death. To be clear, you can't stand off at "superior" distances and fire indiscriminately if you are only after Hamas agents.

You seem to have very unreal expectations about warfare.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.25  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.21    2 weeks ago

And in the meantime, Hamas is free to reign missiles and rockets down on Israelis.

Great "PLAN"!!!

SMH

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.26  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.16    2 weeks ago

It's your stupid decision to disregard the imbalance of lives loss on competing sides. . .that will lead to continued 'generational curses' between two peoples related by blood. Israel, it is decided, has the superior air power and thus the greater need for restraint in its use. We can see this point playing out when world leaders are telling them to use "restraint" and "proportionality" or risk reduction in what other nations supply Israel in offensive weapons going forward. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.27  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.26    2 weeks ago
It's your stupid decision to disregard the imbalance of lives loss on competing sides

No that is merely your poor interpretation of my words.

You want the terrorists coddled--along with their supporters. I don't play that game.

I hold Palestinians responsible because Hamas IS Palestinian. Well, that and the fact they never do anything to get out from under Hamas--as if that is something they actually may want to do--which I have seen zero evidence of.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.28  GregTx  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.24    2 weeks ago
the imbalance of lives loss on competing sides....

I agree.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.29  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.20    2 weeks ago

No one can justify a wholesale dismissal of  a slaughter of civilians, in this time of modern warfare. Non one can do it.You are belaboring the point now.

Every since 1969's My Lai Massacre, ethical standards of fighting have been applied to wars in which the U.S. participates.  Exceptional brutality and deaths during war (as defined by war conventions) will cause anti-war sentiments to spring up and 'flourish' throughout. 

And I humbly add: That is not a hard concept to grasp. 

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.30  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.23    2 weeks ago

original

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.31  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.22    2 weeks ago

Greg, don't overthink this. That comment is searching for a 'home' to belong. It does not have a place in this discussion.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.32  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.24    2 weeks ago

Prove it. Or, its just more dark rhetoric from a 'trusted' source.   /s

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.33  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.21    2 weeks ago
Easy enough.

Easy enough if you the one not being shot at.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.34  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.30    2 weeks ago

Bull. You don't live in the Middle East either, I presume.  And now you can supply your own facts on who is shooting up civilians in x numbers. Or just drop asking unknowns.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.35  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.25    2 weeks ago

So far, Hamas' "rain" is not touching Israel's soil in any significant way. Very ineffectual.

(A good thing it is not too. I do not support Hamas or what it did on October 7, 2023 in any form, shape, or fashion.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.36  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.27    2 weeks ago

Now you're just 'looping'. To that I said. Read what I have already written. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.37  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.33    2 weeks ago

Same to you.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.38  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.34    2 weeks ago

Statistics can be your friend or your foe....

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.39  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.31    2 weeks ago

Isn't that your argument? 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.40  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.38    2 weeks ago

Whatever that means. I guess: "Yes!"  Final answer.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.41  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.39    2 weeks ago

"Everyone belongs" - if that is what you mean. I have a standing policy of not responding to questions asked by MAGAs, because it causes rounds of 'endless' questions and I ain't getting caught in that 'net.'  :)  Make your questions in the form of statements and I will respond or not respond based on what is written going forward.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.42  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.40    2 weeks ago

During the Iraqui war an estimated 120,000-150,000 Iraqui civilians were killed. Roughly 30,000 were killed by US and/or coalition military forces...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.43  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.42    2 weeks ago

Unnecessary fact. I am sure that a defender of life as conservatives model themselves to be can appreciate that the time for looking the other way when civilians are killed by 'technical' or 'dumb' weapons ought to come to a close. Give a justification for why excessive non-combatant killings should remain the status quo.

(The definition of insanity it has been suggested in this context would be doing the same old-fashioned and deadly thing thing over and over again without thought or conscience.)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.44  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.29    2 weeks ago

no one is.

you are not understanding the arguments made if you think that's what's happening..

people want Israel to do the impossible, and that's crazy.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.45  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.37    2 weeks ago
Same to you.

I’m not asking the IDF to greatly increase their risk, you are.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.46  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.36    2 weeks ago

I have read every platitude 

I have seen you call on Israel to do things you don't expect others to do, seen all the pleas for Israel to do the impossible without ever once saying how they can do what YOU want them to.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.47  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.45    2 weeks ago

Exactly!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.48  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.44    2 weeks ago

I suggest you worry about that to which you are assenting: The slaughter of non-combatants 'kept' hostage apparently by Hamas to be fashioned as human shields. At the least, those done so should be 'pitied' instead of demonized - if that is indeed the case.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.49  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.45    2 weeks ago

Since increased risk to the IDF is what it will take to result in less civilian deaths. . . then yes, of course, I agree with it.  What is devastating to your stance here is you do not wish to address the loss of civilian life on the opposing side against Israel. I will continue to address both sides civilians and they all should be kept out of this. Particularly, going forward. (No one can say if this will be the last conflict or war between these two blood 'cousins.')

BTW, an Israeli military spokesman has already relayed to 'us' through cable news this tidbit: 'If Israel really wanted to kill civilians. . . it could end the war in three days (long ago)' or words to that effect. He is probably correct. 

But as a consequence, world condemnation would be off the charts and impossible to withstand. What has occurred as it is right now is more than the international community can fully accept! The international community is asking these combatants on both sides to 'fix this mess' without killing non-combatant civilians on both sides atrociously and indefinitely.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.50  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.46    2 weeks ago

Looping (again). Same answer from me.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.51  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.43    2 weeks ago

Unnecessary? It relates directly to your opinion that Israel is responsible for all the death, so far as you've heard or read reported.

Give a justification for why excessive non-combatant killings should remain the status quo.

Right after you give a justification for allowing an organization that engages in excessive non-combatant killings to remain the status quo. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.52  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.48    2 weeks ago

I suggest you provide a plan fir Israel To ONLY kill Hamas and explain why you seem so cavalier about Israeli deaths 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.53  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.50    2 weeks ago

non answer to a question not asked

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.54  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.51    2 weeks ago

Yep. Looping.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.55  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.53    2 weeks ago

More of the same (looping).

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.56  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.55    2 weeks ago

that makes no sense at all.

what are you trying to say?

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.57  GregTx  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.56    2 weeks ago

512

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.58  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.54    2 weeks ago

No doubt, shrimp and grits..

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.59  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.49    2 weeks ago
What is devastating to your stance here is you do not wish to address the loss of civilian life on the opposing side against Israel.

I don’t see an alternative.  Israel has been attacked off and on for 75 years.  

I have watched the Palestinians turn down deals brokered by Clinton and Carter.  Obama knew it was a waste of time to even try.

The Palestinians are the only multigenerational, professional refugees.  It’s what they are good at.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.60  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.59    2 weeks ago

You seem to be expressing a rationale for killing noncombatants who have not taken up arms against Israel nor offered any resistance to Israel's defense forces. Professional refugees. . . is name-calling and has no value to this discussion. Israel is supplied funds and weapons by the U.S. and you do not label them

I too have watched a 'lifetime' of both sides not making an agreement. It is something both sides have to meet in the middle to do. (I guess.)

Meanwhile, disproportionate killing of innocent civilians, some whom are probably survivors of deadly diseases and cancers are facing imminent death along with their youth and babies through indiscriminate and dismissive bombings, artillery, and other weapons.

Innocent people are. . . first and foremost, worthy of living their lives to the fullest on both sides.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.61  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.60    2 weeks ago
You seem to be expressing a rationale for killing noncombatants who have not taken up arms against Israel nor offered any resistance to Israel's defense forces.

No, I recognize the extreme difficulty in urban combat of separating civilians from terrorists who dress the same, look the same, and use the same buildings.

Professional refugees. . . is name-calling and has no value to this discussion

Name another group since WWII that have steadily kept refugee status for 75 years.

I too have watched a 'lifetime' of both sides not making an agreement. It is something both sides have to meet in the middle to do. (I guess.)

When has Palestine been willing to meet in the middle?  Where is the middle in From the river to the sea?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.62  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.61    2 weeks ago

You are still assenting to the killing of noncombatants and all the while I know you do would not support indiscriminate killings of some conservative families and friends under the same set of circumstances. That is a given—unless you are a rarity. Do not direct others to do what you will not like to see happen 'here'!

As it is in any such situation, you determine whom the bad guys are and take them out while leaving the innocent along. There is no acceptable justification for the wholesale killing of innocent noncombatants on the Jewish 'side' or the Palestinian 'side.' 

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.63  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.62    2 weeks ago
There is no acceptable justification for the wholesale killing of innocent noncombatants on the Jewish 'side'...

Correct, that's why there is a war going on.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.64  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.62    2 weeks ago
You are still assenting to the killing of noncombatants and all the while I know you do would not support indiscriminate killings of 'own' family and friends.

How many civilians do you think died in Afghanistan and Iraq by Western forces?

Do not tell others to do what you will not like to see happen 'here'!

I haven’t told others to shit.  What did you tell US forces to do in Afghanistan and Iraq?  Did you tell them not to burst into civilian houses looking for weapons and IED materials.  Did you tell Obama that his drone killing policy was wrong?  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.65  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.63    2 weeks ago

It is dishonest to deliberately adulterate the context of a comment! Do self-correct now!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.66  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.64    2 weeks ago

This is now and its time to disavow the ignorance of blind killing of civilians. It's not a hard concept to process, comprehend, or execute.  Time for conscience to kick in. 

The international community is calling on "all combatants" in this particular war to leave unarmed civilians alone. And we should do so too!  Remember do no harm. 

(Unless you really, really, are assenting to just killing as many of 'them' as possible.)

Furthermore, killing all of Hamas agents and its active supporters is probably impossible as such an ideology likely exist pervasively in the Islamic region and can 'swell' up into a fighting force again in the short-term or long -term. 

Israel has to ask itself if it truly can kill its way out of this mess. And, the same goes for Palestinians! 

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.67  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.65    2 weeks ago
render (something) poorer in quality by adding another substance, typically an inferior one. "the meat was ground fine and adulterated with potato flour"

Really?.. Why do you think that there's a war in Gaza?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.68  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.66    2 weeks ago
This is now 

Yes and Afghanistan and Iraq were a whole 15 years ago.

It's not a hard concept to process, comprehend, or execute. 

You have no idea how hard it is to execute.  

The international community is calling on "all combatants" in this particular war to leave unarmed civilians alone.

The hypocritical international community that watches civilians killed in Asia, Africa and the MidEast?

Furthermore, killing all of Hamas agents and its active supporters is probably impossible as such an ideology likely exist pervasively in the Islamic region and can 'swell' up into a fighting force again in the short-term or long -term. 

Our inability to kill all of the Nazis didn’t prevent are entry into WWII.

Israel has to ask itself if it truly can kill its way out of this mess. 

Since there are no Palestinian leaders to negotiate with, Israel can keep having its civilians killed or fight back.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.69  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.68    2 weeks ago

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. It is no way to conduct a civil and conclusive discussion. We're done here. Anybody who says that killing civilians is okay, just because those civilians can't stop it from happening is demonstratively conscience numb. It is time for a change in how warfare (around civilian populations) is conducted. Got to start somewhere. This situation is a good place to begin thinking differently.

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
4.1.70  GregTx  replied to  CB @4.1.69    2 weeks ago

I hear bubble wrap works well...../s

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.71  CB  replied to  GregTx @4.1.70    2 weeks ago

Snark is not helpful. Being conscience numb in this won't help it become a better discussion either. I have jokes I could drop; this is no laughing matter, nevertheless.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.72  Sparty On  replied to  CB @4.1.19    2 weeks ago

Nonsense as usual.    No direct response to any of my comment sans a complete misreading of the well known saying used.

Little to no intellect in your comment which is just sad really.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.73  Sparty On  replied to  CB @4.1.71    2 weeks ago

And your stance here is incredibly naive.    Almost  … childlike ……

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.74  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.69    2 weeks ago
You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. It is no way to conduct a civil and conclusive discussion

Arguing, no, as it takes two to argue.

Anybody who says that killing civilians is okay,

Who has said that?

It is time for a change in how warfare (around civilian populations) is conducted. Got to start somewhere.

Give us your prescription for new, urban tactics, techniques and procedures.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.75  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.74    2 weeks ago

I suggest a good library in your area or better yet go to the Pentagon and. . . well, talk to them.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.76  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.74    2 weeks ago
Give us your prescription for new, urban tactics, techniques and procedures

I have yet to see an actual suggestion on exactly how Israel is supposed to protect its people and accomplish its goals without civilian deaths.

If course, it sounds good to say all sorts of kumbaya things and hold Israel to stricter standards than the terrorists.

Plays right into Hama' hands.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.77  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.75    2 weeks ago
I suggest a good library in your area or better yet go to the Pentagon and. . . well, talk to them.

As usual, when the discussion reaches the point of put up or shut up, you deflect.

You frequently try to discuss issue that you know little about, but it his may be a record for you.  Not only have you not served in the military, nor seem to know much about recent urban warfare history to include that which the US has been involved in, but beyond feel-good bromides, you haven’t even given the topic the deep thought that it deserves.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.78  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.76    2 weeks ago

I don't see any mention of civilian life being valuable on the Palestinian side and Israeli side in your pitches for destruction of powerless men, women, and children

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.79  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.77    2 weeks ago

And you talk a lot of shit, but don't value human life. . at least not of people whom you do not approve. And you don't know me - so it is just shit talk for shit talk sake. I don't owe you anything but what I write in my comments. . .you don't have to respond, but when you do don't just talk shit to me, because I won't let you.

Killing innocent people is wrong in our country and as the president is demonstrating. . .this country is taking a stand against the killing of civilians. He does not care what a grouping of 'blood-thirsty' conservatives think about his decision. Our weapons will be used in accordance with international agreements in warfare or they will be limited or not shipped out at all.

The president agrees (and so do I) that Hamas should be 'gotten' in any way, shape, form, or fashion they can be. Leave the innocent out of the 'getting,' nevertheless. The rising loss of innocent life is unconscionable. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.80  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.78    2 weeks ago

then you should start reading my posts.

and please stop pretending I advocate for civilian deaths.

Maybe its just that I am not naive enough to believe a bunch of crap about protecting civilians when they allow terrorists to use them freely.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.81  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.80    2 weeks ago

Please. Don't pretend to care about unarmed Palestinian men, women, children, elderly, pregnant women, disabled folks, handicapped, seniors, and people so poor they can't fight anybody if they wanted to - that are being bombed and shelled out of existence. Because if you were to care it would readily be clear for all to read and not have to wonder.

Now then, I have no intention of just "chatting you up" so if there is nothing else. Let's move back to the topic of civilians dying in Gaza by the tens of thousands!

Don't waste time trying to gaslight me, because I can read with the best of them and your perspective is "loud and clear" to me. You don't give a damn about anybody who is not on your side, agenda, or ledger. Dead civilian Palestinians and those in the line of fire can expect only bile from MAGAs.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.82  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.81    2 weeks ago
Don't pretend to care about unarmed Palestinian men, women, children, elderly, pregnant women, disabled folks, handicapped, seniors, and people so poor they can't fight anybody if they wanted to - that are being bombed and shelled out of existence. 

Obviously Abdul and Lina don't care much either across the Arab landscape.  Perhaps they have grown more tired of Palestinians than our college students.  We will see how much they pitch in to rebuild Gaza.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.83  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.82    2 weeks ago

Somebody needs to care about Palestinians, because this ain't over until it is over. Keep killing civilians on either side and wait and see what is the obvious outcome. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.84  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.81    2 weeks ago

I consider Palestinians to be supporters and enablers of Hamas.

You can choose to view them as you see fit.

please keep that damn stupid Maga crap to yourself, or at the very least, stop directing it to me. I am no more Maga than you are.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.85  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.83    2 weeks ago

maybe when Palestinians start to care enough about themselves, they can assist Israel in getting rid of Hamas 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.86  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.83    2 weeks ago

the obvious outcome is civilians on both sides will die.

it is indeed unfortunate but unavoidable.

before you twist that fact into me advocating civilian deaths, read the post and think about the truth in it first.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.87  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.79    2 weeks ago
Killing innocent people is wrong in our country and as the president is demonstrating. . .this country is taking a stand against the killing of civilians. He does not care what a grouping of 'blood-thirsty' conservatives think about his decision. Our weapons will be used in accordance with international agreements in warfare or they will be limited or not shipped out at all.

One shipment  of 2,000 pound bombs has been delayed, it is an election year after all.

Upon her death, Madeleine Albright was called by Bill Clinton “a passionate force for freedom, democracy, and human rights”. President Joe Biden, meanwhile, proclaimed she “was always a force for goodness, grace, and decency – and for freedom”.

Some years earlier, in a 1996, 60 Minutes interview, Lesley Stahl questioned Albright, on the catastrophic effect the rigorous US sanctions imposed after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait had on the Iraqi population.

“We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima,” asked Stahl, “And, you know, is the price worth it?”  

“I think that is a very hard choice,” Albright answered, “but the price, we think, the price is worth it.”

That policy didn't cost any US lives, do you agree that it was worth it?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.88  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.83    2 weeks ago

Somebody needs to care about Palestinians

Why do you think that their Arab neighbors have grown weary of caring?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.89  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.88    2 weeks ago

Perhaps its because Palestinians are perpetual refugees and have taken no responsibility for their own situation. Plus, they harbor terrorists.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4.1.90  charger 383  replied to  CB @4.1.83    2 weeks ago

       "Somebody needs to care about Palestinians"

Why?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.91  Texan1211  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.90    2 weeks ago

to keep perpetuating them as helpless victims.

sad, isn't it?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.92  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.89    2 weeks ago

The world has seen many refugee crises since WWII. The Palestinians hold the record for stretching it out to 75 years.  In 1948, Palestinian refugees numbered around 700,000.  Since they, they have prolifically grown that number to around 7 million today.

Palestinians have a unique refugee definition from the UN,  it includes both the original refugees and their descendants, children, grandchildren and offspring without end.  They are the world's only multigenerational refugees.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.93  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.71    2 weeks ago
Being conscience numb in this won't help it become a better discussion either.

We both know that you aren't really interested in helping to make a better discussion.  If you were, you wouldn't consistently duck questions.

So let's get comfortably numb, not conscience numb.

Hello
Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you can hear me
Is there anyone at home?

Come on now
I hear you're feeling down
Well, I can ease your pain
Get you on your feet again

Relax
I'll need some information first
Just the basic facts
Can you show me where it hurts?

There is no pain, you are receding
A distant ship smoke on the horizon
You are only coming through in waves
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.94  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.84    2 weeks ago

MAGA is a problem (think about those dogs and fleas you referenced) for some people.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.95  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.85    2 weeks ago
[T]hey [Palestinians] can assist Israel in getting rid of Hamas.

Emphatically. ;)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.96  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.87    2 weeks ago

Wars of the past (and there have been a great many of them) were done through a great deal of ignorance and fearfulness. We're more modern now, we go to space and 'beyond' with powerful machines and "super' weapons (drones, too.) The time has come to stop killing civilians and seeing these innocent people as "collateral damage" or "cannon fodder." 

What has been done in the past can not be changed. What we do going forward in this new 'frame' is life.

One more thing, prolifers love to mouth their love for life (of the Unborn) and yet many of them are hushed mouth when the world kills civilians just because they can't get out of the way soon enough or worse, as par for the course. Additionally, some prolifers actually support the killing of innocent life outside the womb in these conflict/war situations. It's inconsistent reasoning.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.97  CB  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.90    2 weeks ago

They are humans like us. Why not?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.98  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.93    2 weeks ago

Okay, now you've started something I like. This is one of my all-time favorite songs. I tripped more times than I can remember to this song by in my youth. (Aww, now I will be singing this for days. . . . )

A bow to the genius of Pink Floyd. 

Oh, don't you dare tell me what I am passionate about. I forgive you, this time. :)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.99  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.94    2 weeks ago

seems to be a problem for you.

me, not so much.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.100  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.95    2 weeks ago

Sure will be nice if they ever stop supporting tge terrorists.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.101  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.98    2 weeks ago

Oh, don't you dare tell me what I am passionate about.

When did I do that?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.102  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.96    2 weeks ago
Wars of the past (and there have been a great many of them) were done through a great deal of ignorance and fearfulness.

Maybe because I'm older than you, but the 1990's to now isn't the past.

We're more modern now, we go to space and 'beyond'

Yes, since the 60's.

The time has come to stop killing civilians and seeing these innocent people as "collateral damage" or "cannon fodder." 

You haven't convinced Hamas.

One more thing, prolifers love to mouth their love for life (of the Unborn) and yet many of them are hushed mouth when the world kills civilians just because they can't get out of the way soon enough or worse,

I'm not anti abortion.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.103  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.97    2 weeks ago

Do you dance in the street and pass out sweets to celebrate the killing of Israeli civilians?  Do you send children with suicide vests to get on civilian buses or enter restaurants?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.104  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.102    2 weeks ago

A lack of sincerity. . .

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.105  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.104    2 weeks ago

No, completely sincere.  Why did you think otherwise?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4.1.106  charger 383  replied to  CB @4.1.97    2 weeks ago

      "They are humans like us. Why not?"

They are the enemy. Not all humans are good, like us. What have they ever done for us?  

They cannot be trusted, If we did help them, it is a high probability they would continue to cause problems, support terrorism, continue to be a burden and not show any gratitude

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1.107  JBB  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.106    2 weeks ago

That is exactly what Nazis believed of the Jews to justify exterminating Jews...

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4.1.108  charger 383  replied to  JBB @4.1.107    2 weeks ago

and what group is now trying to exterminate the Jews?  Should that group get support and sympathy? 

 
 
 
shona1
PhD Quiet
4.1.109  shona1  replied to  CB @4.1.97    2 weeks ago

Evening CB...The day the Palestinians turn their back on Hamas and anyone similar, is the day I will support them..

Until that day, never...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1.110  JBB  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.108    2 weeks ago

I advocate sympathy for everyone on both sides who do not advocate killing each other based on ancient prejudices instead of actual guilt. Demonizing and dehumanizing either is wrongheaded...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.111  Texan1211  replied to  shona1 @4.1.109    2 weeks ago

That is exactly how I feel.

 
 
 
shona1
PhD Quiet
4.1.112  shona1  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.111    2 weeks ago

Evening Texan..until the Palestinians turn their backs on Hamas and the hand that feeds it Iran..there will never be peace in that region...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.113  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @4.1.110    2 weeks ago
I advocate sympathy for everyone on both sides who do not advocate killing each other

Are you thinking arm bands or some other distinctive item to tell the non-killing advocates apart?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.114  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.78    2 weeks ago
I don't see any mention of civilian life being valuable on the Palestinian side and Israeli side in your pitches for destruction of powerless men, women, and children

Well, of course you don't!

Maybe you can't see it because you are too busy imagining things you wish people had said to argue about instead of what is actually written.

These imaginary "pitches" are strictly in your head.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.115  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.102    2 weeks ago

Some think people not as liberal as themselves are all MAGAS and against abortion.

I guess they are so used to associating with ONLY those who think exactly alike they can not even fathom a difference of opinion...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.116  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.115    2 weeks ago
Some think people not as liberal as themselves are all MAGAS and against abortion.

Extremism at it worst and we have our friends on the left to thank for it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.117  CB  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.106    2 weeks ago

The Palestinian people are not your enemy.  And its self-righteous to think otherwise. (Although, I am not in this to defend Palestinians.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.118  CB  replied to  shona1 @4.1.109    2 weeks ago

I am okay with that. My argument is that killing unarmed, noncombatant Palestinians is wrong. No matter if they support Hamas or not. That's it. We should all be able to support LIFE. Especially, in these escalating and 'wild' numbers. It does not matter what has happened in the past. . . the time has come to end the practice of wholesale slaughter of innocent life. . . just to get at the terrorists. 

I will go on to state that having superior weapons and using them with intent to end wars (and not just dominate) does not work if you cause more hatred to 'grow': It's self-defeating. Sometimes people have to the hardest work of all: diplomacy.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.119  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.118    2 weeks ago
We should all be able to support LIFE .

The majority of Palestinians, believe armed attacks against Israelis inside Israel are effective and justified to go from the river to the sea.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4.1.120  charger 383  replied to  CB @4.1.117    2 weeks ago

Those who attack our allies and their supporters are the enemy and a threat. 

What have they done to show otherwise?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.121  CB  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.120    2 weeks ago

"Those who attack and their supporters. . . "

Noncombatant civilians have not attacked anybody. If so, you should have the evidence. . .so show it. And if you are talking about killing men, women, and children just because of how they might think. . . I can remind you that a 'thought' has never hit or killed anybody.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.122  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.114    2 weeks ago

More bile.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.123  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.119    2 weeks ago

That is not a reason to kill civilians. I am pretty sure somewhere you know this! But, it flows so easily out of your 'pen.'

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.124  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.113    2 weeks ago

I heard an Israeli military spokesman sound off on this when asked about the reported deaths of 30,000 Palestinians he replied: '15,000 of those deaths were Hamas terrorists.' Paraphrased. 

The obvious question becomes how could he know that precisely? And, killing 15,000 'known' civilians expresses the issue the international community (including the U.S.) are turnign to get after. Escalating civilian deaths. 

Drinker, your cavalier remarks actually points out something. . . a lack of conscience about who is 'under' and being killed by indiscriminate bombings, artillery fire, and gunfire. 

Just dominate all the Palestinians.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.125  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.123    2 weeks ago

“Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons.”

Amnesty International 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.126  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.125    2 weeks ago

If someone points a weapon to do harm then harm them. You can not use Amnesty International to categorize the Palestinian people on your television sets hauling 'remnants' of their lives back and forth around Gaza looking for safe zones as "armed groups.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.127  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.124    2 weeks ago

I believe that Hamas needs be destroyed as much as possible and I’m not advocating to seriously increase IDF casualties as your cavalier remarks indicate.  My conscience won’t allow that.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.128  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.122    2 weeks ago

The imaginary bile is actually factual.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.129  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.126    2 weeks ago
forth around Gaza looking for safe zones as "armed groups

Where did they find the children for suicide bombing, they weren’t Hamas kids.  Do the Palestinians celebrate these children as martyrs.  Do they accept martyr payments?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.130  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.118    2 weeks ago
Sometimes people have to the hardest work of all: diplomacy.

That is a pipe dream when it comes to making deals with terrorists.

Why on earth--based on historical FACT--would you ever, ever, EVER trust the terrorists to keep their word which they have broken EVERY. SINGLE. TIME?

That is truly bizarre

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.131  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.130    2 weeks ago

Then just let it go as it is. We (all) will die with the Middle East being unsettled in our lifetimes, in my opinion. Keep the 'forever' war going! And, the foreign aid to the region 'pumping.'  /s 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.132  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.131    2 weeks ago
Keep the 'forever' war going! And, the foreign aid to the region 'pumping.'  /s 

yes, it sure takes that awful money to fight terrorists. Terrorists are keeping the war going, why not try for once to assign blame where it really belongs? Rhetorical, I know you don't answer questions, as you have made plain.

You keep advocating for something without once offering how you would be able to accomplish what you want.

Easy to complain but real solutions are harder.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.2  Krishna  replied to  CB @4    2 weeks ago
as attacking humanity, and unforgivable. That is a 'red flag.' 

Well, the idea way to conduct a war is to do it in a way where no one is killed!

Some WISE words on that topic from Bill Maher:

NEW RULE: FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.1  CB  replied to  Krishna @4.2    2 weeks ago

For the record, I love Bill Maher. For the record I am not a supporter of Hamas. For the  record, I do not think wars should be 'bloodless.'  What I have stated plainly is the killing of civilians (on any of the two sides) in ever-increasing numbers in Gaza (especially if these people are pinned against a border area with nowhere to go) will result in to turning them into victims. Surely, anybody can understand this. 

What "my friend" Bill (I have listened to him for years now and now he is back on CNN Fridays) is monologuing about is a great analysis of the situation and his insights are brilliant. However, he is not talking about CIVILIAN DEATHS of NON-COMBATANTS.  I am. Some of us are.

Finally, I have no clue of what the two nations will do to put their battles and wars behind them. What I do know is that I can not support the death of innocent people who have not taken up arms, but are "sitting ducks" anyway for a superior fighting force.

Bill is great. Love that guy's show!

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.2.2  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @4.2    2 weeks ago

This again?

Forgetting about the 3 massive settlements Israel has in Bethlehem? That the IDF is actually in control of Bethlehem?

From the porch of the small stone cottage used during harvests, Mr. Abu Eid, who is a member of the Greek Orthodox church, can look out in front of him and see the Israeli settlement of Har Gilo—considered by Israel a neighborhood of Jerusalem. Out the back, construction work on the tunnel road that will connect Jerusalem and settlements in the Bethlehem area, known as the Gush Etzion block, continues, and beyond that are more settlements in the Southern Hebron area.

Before much of the land around him was confiscated by Israel for settlement construction and the tunnel road, Mr. Abu Eid said, he had almost four acres (15 dunams) of agricultural land in the valley. Now he has only one left.

Still, every day he comes to tend his orchards. In the past the cottage, and others like it belonging to other families dotting the Al Makhrour valley, was used mostly during harvest times or as a weekend gathering place for the family. But now Mr. Abu Eid’s adult children do not like to come here even for that, he said. It is too depressing for them.

Located on the outer edge of the Christian village of   Beit Jala   and about four miles northeast of the Old City of Bethlehem, Al Makhrour is one of the few remaining green spaces left in the Bethlehem core area for agriculture and outdoor recreational activities.

U.S.-backed normalization agreements, which include a suspension of Israeli annexation of parts of the West Bank, were signed in mid-September between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain. But the threat of more settlement expansion along the northern, southern and eastern borders of the Bethlehem core area remains a constant concern for local residents.

According to the Oslo Accords, Israel retains control over security and land management in “Area C,” 60 percent of the West Bank, where Mr. Abu Eid’s orchard is located. He feels his land is under constant threat of confiscation by Israel.

“We live in a situation of chronic alertness, of worrying about what will happen next,” Mr. Abu Eid said. “You can’t build anything here. You can only come to take your fruit.”

While the U.A.E.- Bahrain agreements were being touted as political breakthroughs, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister, the alternate prime minister and political rival Benny Gantz, were jousting for political support from West Bank settlers, each holding out the promise of more settlement construction as their trump card.

In early September, just after the agreements were announced, Mr. Gantz declared his eagerness to promote the construction of almost   5,000 new homes   in West Bank settlements. Seeing his party falling in popularity and scrambling to secure his base of support among the settlers, Mr. Netanyahu, for his part, convened the   Higher Planning Council for Judea and Samaria   (as Israel officially calls the West Bank) after an eight-month hiatus. It   approved the construction   of 2,166 settler homes on Oct. 14 and is expected to green-light an additional 2,500 housing units on Oct. 15.

The council is responsible for decisions over settlement construction. According to media reports, it is expected to discuss moving forward with plans likewise for 5,000 new housing units.

Some of those new housing units, if they are built, would be constructed not far from Mr. Abu Eid’s fruit orchard just out of sight in the south, over another hill in the encroaching Israeli settlement of Efrat, which is part of the Gush Etzion settlement block.

After a 20-year legal battle, Efrat was given the go-ahead in May by the Israeli Civil Administration to expand with 7,000 more units in a new, noncontiguous “neighborhood,” known as Givat Eitam, on about 300 acres (1,200 dunams) of land on a barren hill near the al-Nahla area, where Palestinian farmers—some of whom have land registration documents—have been farming for generations.

If implemented, this construction plan would effectively cut off 14 southern West Bank villages from their natural connection with Bethlehem and also cut off Bethlehem from the main highway that connects it to the southern West Bank, including the city of Hebron. It would also prevent the city’s growth in the only direction not yet blocked by Israeli settlements or highways.

The Bethlehem core area is already hemmed in to the north by the Gilo, Har Gilo and Har Homa semi-circle of settlements—all considered Jerusalem neighborhoods by Israel. The three are built on territories Israel annexed to Jerusalem from Beit Jala and  Beit Sahour , another historically Christian village located just east of Bethlehem. The  Givat Hamatos  settlement, also considered to be a neighborhood of Jerusalem by Israel, is slated for this same area.

I actually kind of like Maher; but he is only a comedian, writer, and talk show host. Maybe he should take a look at all of the land that Israel has taken in the West Bank and realize; that in this instance he is flat out wrong.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5  Ronin2    2 weeks ago
But U.S. and Israeli officials both say the military has enough munitions to attack Rafah without U.S. support.

They don't need our aid.

I have heard repeatedly from Israel's backers that Israel "didn't want it, and never asked for it."

So why the fuck are we wasting billions in US taxpayer dollars sending it to them?

Please answer me that!

Are we not wasting enough US taxpayer money in Ukraine? That was after the billions we wasted in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing. Which is on top of all the billions we have gifted Israel over the course of it's existence. Through in our supposed allies in NATO, Taiwan, Japan, Australia, and elsewhere- when does it it end? We also seem to have money for our enemies in Iran; and I guess the Palestinians- because sure as hell we have made sure they will never be our ally.

Our infrastructure is crumbling. Our border security is beyond a joke. We are all waiting around for the next terrorist attack on US soil- whether it be ISIS/ISIL, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, some other Iran proxy, or even a Russian or China backed operation. Brandon and Democrats want to take the country green; but our electric grid can't handle it- and will take trillions to fix. 

Yet here we are again throwing money away abroad to countries that never even both to thank us; much the less listen to us.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago
So why the fuck are we wasting billions in US taxpayer dollars sending it to them? Please answer me that!

Its really not that difficult a question.

Here's a hint: there are real enemies to the U.S. People (and countries) who are baric-- and really want horrible things done to us and out friends. 

The only reason they haven't attacked us and waged an all out war of extermination is the military strength of us--and our allies.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago
We are all waiting around for the next terrorist attack on US soil-

Speak for yourself!

I. and everyone i associate isn't.

Heck-- From family to friends-- I can't remember the last time someone even mentioned that. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.2.1  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.2    2 weeks ago

So you don't believe US intelligence agencies now?

Here in the United States, our most immediate concern is that violent extremists—individuals or small groups—will draw inspiration from the events in the Middle East to carry out attacks against Americans going about their daily lives. That includes not just homegrown violent extremists inspired by a foreign terrorist organization but also domestic violent extremists targeting Jewish or Muslim communities. We’ve seen that already with the individual we arrested last week in Houston, who’d been studying how to build bombs and posted online about his support for killing Jews. And with the tragic killing of a 6-year-old Muslim boy in Illinois in what we’re investigating as a federal hate crime.

But as I said a few moments ago, on top of the HVE and DVE threat, we also cannot—and do not—discount the possibility that Hamas or another foreign terrorist organization may exploit the current conflict to conduct attacks here on our own soil. We’ve kept our sights on Hamas and have multiple ongoing investigations into individuals affiliated with that foreign terrorist organization.

And while historically our Hamas cases have identified individuals located here who are facilitating and financing Hamas’ terrorism overseas, we’re continuing to scrutinize our intelligence to assess how the threat may be evolving. But it’s not just Hamas.

As the world’s largest state-sponsor of terrorism, the Iranians, for instance, have directly, or by hiring criminals, mounted assassination attempts against dissidents and high-ranking current and former U.S. government officials, including right here on American soil. And, along those lines, Hizballah, Iran’s primary strategic partner, has a history of seeding operatives and infrastructure, obtaining money and weapons, and spying in this country going back years.

In the hearing, members received confirmation of the urgent national security threat posed by the nearly 1.8 million known gotaways and the rising number of individuals on the terrorist watchlist apprehended crossing the Southwest border—especially as America’s enemies, including Iran-backed Hamas and Hezbollah, have been emboldened to spread their malign influence following the October 7 terrorist attacks on our ally, Israel. Wray confirmed these facts in his testimony and alluded to Chairman Green that the national security consequences of the crisis have turned every state into a border state. Director Wray even confirmed joint terrorism task forces in all 56 of the agency’s field offices are occupied with threats coming across the border. Worse, Mayorkas could not confirm that every suspected terrorist that crosses the Southwest border illegally is detained by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), while Wray admitted that the FBI is still attempting to locate certain individuals on the terrorist watchlist who have crossed into the United States. Throughout his testimony, Mayorkas consistently refused to answer direct questions about how his policies have opened America’s borders, and the national security consequences of those policies. 

Maybe if Trump were in the White House the Democrats and leftist media would be paying more attention to this.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.3  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago

Yet here we are again throwing money away abroad

And of course there is this issue of what type of people you are criticizing-- those that their friends can't count on?

Imagine if we cut off aid to Ukraine while they were under attack from the Russians--  what kind of people do you prefer? Those that deserrt their friends in time of need?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.3.1  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.3    2 weeks ago

Sorry, I don't support Fascists of any ilk. Whether they be Ukrainian or Russian.

Fuck them both.

Ukraine is a European problem not ours. We have done enough already. 

Do you really think Ukraine will thank us in any way shape or form once the fighting is over? No, they will be first in line demanding we pay to rebuild their country for them.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.4  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago
I have heard repeatedly from Israel's backers that Israel "didn't want it, and never asked for it."

What they say--repeatedly-- is that they don't want other people to fight for them. Their citizens are perfectly capable of fighting their own battles!

(What they do want is to get advanced weapons systems they don't manufacture themselves. But soldiers from other countries? Definitely not!)

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.4.1  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.4    2 weeks ago

Then they can pay for those advanced weapons systems themselves! 

They don't need a dime of US taxpayer money to do so.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.5  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago
our electric grid can't handle it- and will take trillions to fix. 

Obviously you're not keeping up with the latest developments in technology . . . 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.5.1  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.5    2 weeks ago

Sure I am.

Then again I am a pessimist that thinks our government is filled with morons that care more about being elected than actually fixing problems.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.6  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago
They don't need our aid. I have heard repeatedly from Israel's backers that Israel "didn't want it, and never asked for it."

When I hear comments like that I feel the need to ask you this question: When you were visiting Israel, did you just stay with your tour group and only speak with them-- did you ever have conversations with actual Israelis?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.6.1  Ronin2  replied to  Krishna @5.6    2 weeks ago

I have never, and will never visit Israel.

I had the opportunity once when I was getting out of college to go to the West Bank; which I would have had to travel through Israel to reach. I was warned by the great grandmother (matron) of the family I was going to stay with not to come. I was at risk of being taken hostage and ransomed.

I do know a couple of Israeli/Americans- who I no longer associate with since 2016. They really didn't handle Hillary losing well at all. Both fervently support Israel and think that the US owes Israel forever.

But if you read the my sentence carefully- 

They don't need our aid

Comes directly from the article from leading US and Israeli military advisors.

The second part-

 I have heard repeatedly from Israel's backers that Israel "didn't want it, and never asked for it."

Go listen to the Sean Hannity show sometime. He is the most fervent Israeli supporter ever. He is fond of saying "Israel has never asked the US for anything. Israel has never demanded aid; only our support".  The words he uses may change; but the sentiment doesn't. Frankly, whenever he talks about foreign affairs it makes my teeth grind.

Now ask me if I have ever spoken to actual Palestinians? That should be the next question- even though I have repeatedly stated one of my best friends was a Palestinian; and I worked with a Palestinian charity while I was in college.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.2  CB  replied to  Ronin2 @5.6.1    2 weeks ago

Reading through your posts. . . I get impressions there is an inconsistency to your reasoning regarding your seeming support for Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank and support for Trump, obviously a 'full' supporter of Israel's actions in this war.

I do realize this is tough and complex subject matter to address. (The region has been hard to talk about in public for decades.)

My interest is piqued as to how you navigate this course you are traveling.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.6.3  Ronin2  replied to  CB @5.6.2    2 weeks ago

I am anti Democrat for the shit they put this country through for the last 8 years and counting.

That is different than being pro Trump.

Brandon is only pandering to his far left radical morons trying to get votes. If he was damn serious the aid would already be cut off to Israel; but he is playing politics. Trying to do something without actually doing anything. I hope it costs him both the Palestinian and Jewish vote.

Neither the Democrats nor Republicans are pro Palestinian. That isn't going to change no matter who is in control of the White House and Congress.

I am also more than a 1 issue voter.

Trump at least will close the southern border; stem illegal immigration; and attempt to remove the millions of illegals that Brandon let in. He will attempt to end the war in Ukraine (or at least end US financing of it). If he can get us out of Iraq and Syria all the better (though I am not certain of that as he blew withdrawing troops from Syria last time). He will try to lower inflation and at least attempt to bring spending down. Also I trust he will try and remove the Democrat influence from the DOJ, FBI, CIA, and IRS. Chances are he will use a cleaver to do so; but it is better than doing nothing. If any Supreme Court justices need to be replaced- he will appoint conservative Constitutionalists- which will be an improvement over any leftist radical Brandon would put in place.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.4  Texan1211  replied to  Ronin2 @5.6.3    2 weeks ago
That is different than being pro Trump.

it is different, but good luck convincing some of it. Some say (falsely and foolishly) that any attack on Biden is somehow a defense of Trump. It is truly a strange interpretation of English. I guess Biden sycophants are incapable of distinguishing between the two.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.5  CB  replied to  Ronin2 @5.6.3    2 weeks ago

Okay, your rhetoric is now clear and plain. I see you are a Trump supporter - after all.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.6  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.6.5    2 weeks ago
I see you are a Trump supporter - after all.

That is amazing.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.6.7  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @5.6.4    2 weeks ago
Some say (falsely and foolishly) that any attack on Biden is somehow a defense of Trump.

That is a skewed understanding of what 'some' claim.   'Some' claim that a preponderance of criticism of Biden with rare criticism of Trump reveals a preference of Trump over Biden.   'Some' also claim that this preference coupled with excuses made for Trump is a defense of Trump.

In basic terms, if one consistently makes excuses for Trump and/or deflects to Biden when Trump is criticized then that is a defense of Trump.   Especially if one has a history of anti-Biden comments with precious few anti-Trump comments.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.6.8  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.7    2 weeks ago

Kinda true, but also, when one says they are voting for Trump, certain circumstances or not, that is showing support for the man and his policies. Same as when one says they were voting for Biden, even with certain circumstances, then they are supporting the man and his policies.

Really no way out of it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.9  CB  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.7    2 weeks ago

They know it. For years they astroturf and more specifically shill for Donald and then try to lie about it as if we can't distinguish gaslighting from fact. The only question I really have is why is it permitted (though, I realize that this site is not here just for my points of view). The problem is, they are not putting forth truth foremost or first, instead its agenda all day and night long.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.6.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @5.6.9    2 weeks ago

They know it.

Who is they?

For years they astroturf and more specifically shill for Donald and then try to lie about it as if we can't distinguish gaslighting from fact.

Can one astroturf while simultaneously gaslighting?

The only question I really have is why is it permitted.

The same reason that your refusal to answer is permitted. 

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.6.11  bugsy  replied to  CB @5.6.9    2 weeks ago
The only question I really have is why is it permitted

Because it is a first amendment right. Get used to it and welcome to the world of politics. Liberals do the exact same thing, just about different things.

"The problem is, they are not putting forth truth foremost or first, instead its agenda all day and night long."

Again, welcome to the world of politics.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.12  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.6.10    2 weeks ago

That was not for you. Ignore it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.13  CB  replied to  bugsy @5.6.11    2 weeks ago

Well that explains your perspective, and its not the world of politics alone I am referencing: I am talking about the lying going on here on NT. It should not be allowed and yet brazenly it is and to me the lies thrives. . . .  That said, I see no reason to explain or elaborate overlong with you about it as I don't see any chance of you helping to end it.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.6.14  bugsy  replied to  CB @5.6.13    2 weeks ago
I am talking about the lying going on here on NT.

You are correct, however, when you post something like 5.6.9, you should substitute Biden for Trump as there are many leftists here that tell tall tales when it comes to all democrats...not just one.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.6.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @5.6.12    2 weeks ago

Maybe you don’t understand the social in social media.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.6.16  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.6.15    2 weeks ago

Do you understand why they did not name it anti-social media?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.17  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.7    2 weeks ago
That is a skewed understanding of what 'some' claim.   

Not at all. When someone posts that an attack on Biden is defending Trump, they are full of it. If that is supposed to mean something else, the poster should have posted what they really meant.

And I don't mind calling people out when what they post is so blatantly false 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.18  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.6.15    2 weeks ago

Case in point. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.6.19  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @5.6.18    2 weeks ago

Exactly, more like the old fashioned party line.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.6.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @5.6.16    2 weeks ago

Of course, that’s why you only post sociable memes.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.21  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.7    2 weeks ago

Do you consider attacks on Trump as defending Biden, too?

Or is that somehow different?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.6.22  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @5.6.21    2 weeks ago
Do you consider attacks on Trump as defending Biden, too?

If someone has a preponderance of criticism of Trump with rare criticism of Biden, that reveals a preference of Biden over Trump.   This preference coupled with excuses made for Biden is a defense of Biden.

If one consistently makes excuses for Biden and/or deflects to Trump when Biden is criticized then that is a defense of Biden.   Especially if one has a history of anti-Trump comments with precious few anti-Biden comments.

From what I have observed, those defending Biden would likely admit that they are in fact defending Biden, but those defending Trump will twist themselves into rhetorical contortions to avoid acknowledging that they are defending Trump.   Indeed, they flat out deny the defense even though it is blatantly obvious.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.6.23  CB  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.22    2 weeks ago
but those defending Trump will twist themselves into rhetorical contortions to avoid acknowledging that they are defending Trump.   Indeed, they flat out deny the defense even though it is blatantly obvious.

After all is said and done, I am pretty sure rather than stopping attempts to gaslight and share misinformation.  .  . Donald's supporters fanned out on the internet would leave (us). What they aspire to do here is that important to them.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.24  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.22    2 weeks ago
If someone has a preponderance of criticism of Trump with rare criticism of Biden, that reveals a preference of Biden over Trump.   This preference coupled with excuses made for Biden is a defense of Biden.

I see you dodged the question I asked. 

A simple yes or no question somehow got spun into 3 paragraphs of avoiding the question actually asked.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.25  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.6.23    2 weeks ago
but those defending Trump will twist themselves into rhetorical contortions to avoid acknowledging that they are defending Trump.   Indeed, they flat out deny the defense even though it is blatantly obvious.

That isn't a true statement.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.6.26  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @5.6.24    2 weeks ago
I see you dodged the question I asked. 

A direct answer with details and you dishonestly (and almost predictably) claim I dodged your question.    

The only time you will get a yes or no answer from me is when the question is truly binary.

Here is an example of a binary question:   Does Trump lie in every public speech?    The answer is yes.

Here is an example of a non-binary question:    Do you consider attacks on Trump as defending Biden, too?   The answer depends on the circumstances.   Ergo the more complete answer provided.

By the way, the (unasked) question:   "Do you consider attacks on Biden as defending Trump?" also depends on the circumstances (as I noted in my first post).   People, including myself, have criticized Biden's loan forgiveness pandering.   That, in itself, is not defending Trump.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.6.27  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @5.6.25    2 weeks ago
That isn't a true statement.

Nuh 'uh does not change reality.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.28  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.26    2 weeks ago

An answer to what I asked wouldn't have involved "if"..

try again , simple yes or no:

is a criticism of Trump defending Biden?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.29  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.27    2 weeks ago

And reality doesn't involve a bunch of IFs.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.6.30  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @5.6.29    2 weeks ago
And reality doesn't involve a bunch of IFs.

It most certainly does.   Reality is complex.   One will often provide simplistic answers to a child who has no way of understanding the complexities of reality, but adult conversations rarely deal with factors without nuance.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.6.31  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.30    2 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.6.32  Right Down the Center  replied to  Texan1211 @5.6.31    2 weeks ago

[]

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.6.33  Right Down the Center  replied to  TᵢG @5.6.27    2 weeks ago
Nuh 'uh does not change reality.

Agree but saying an incorrect statement is incorrect is reality

 
 
 
shona1
PhD Quiet
5.7  shona1  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago

Errr don't recall the US gifting us anything... please enlighten me..

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
5.7.1  Igknorantzruls  replied to  shona1 @5.7    2 weeks ago

it's all Australia's fault", i believe he is preferring Trumps isolationist trek, that will only embolden those that would prefer such a course, as in our enimies.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.7.2  Ronin2  replied to  shona1 @5.7    2 weeks ago

A United States funding package authorising more military aid for Ukraine and Israel passed by Congress on Tuesday includes a A$5bn boost for the US domestic submarine-building industry that will directly enable the   Aukus   agreement.

The funding was a condition of congressional endorsement of the Aukus deal and is aimed at ensuring the US can produce Virginia-class nuclear-powered submarines for Australia without undermining its own capability requirements.

The US president, Joe Biden, has earmarked a further $17.5bn in funding for the US submarine industrial base over five years, as part of the presidential budget request for the next financial year.

I guess $5 billion is nothing these days. The further $17.5 billion just another drop in the ever ongoing US spending spree.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.7.3  Ronin2  replied to  Igknorantzruls @5.7.1    2 weeks ago

Remind us all again how many foreign wars Trump started again? 

Under whose watch Russia invaded Ukraine?

Who was in the White House when a massive Chinese spy balloon was allowed to traverse the the US and hover over military bases?

Who dropped sanctions on Iran allowing them to fund Hamas, Hezbollah, and all of their militias? Not to mention sell arms to Russia? And has Iran mere months from developing a nuclear weapon?

When it comes to emboldening our enemies Brandon has no peers.

 
 
 
shona1
PhD Quiet
5.7.4  shona1  replied to  Ronin2 @5.7.2    2 weeks ago

Arvo...Don't see a problem..you mob are selling and we are buying..

The word "gifting" here means free which is certainly not the case..

They are costing 368 billion so no freebies given here...

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.8  Drakkonis  replied to  Ronin2 @5    2 weeks ago
So why the fuck are we wasting billions in US taxpayer dollars sending it to them? Please answer me that!

Well, it seems like Biden is looking for any excuse he can lay his hands on to spend tax dollars. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
6  charger 383    2 weeks ago

those that act like they care about Palestinians are people who don't have to put up with them. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
7  Drinker of the Wry    2 weeks ago

More than 2.5 million civilians are trapped in El Fashir as paramilitary forces encircle the city.  Hospitals are overwhelmed and patients were being treated on the ground. Medical resupplies had been cut off for two weeks or more.  Most of the wounded are burned as a result of missile strikes.

The Sudanese don't warrant the sympathy that our colleges show Gazans.  Maybe because the Sudandes are Black or maybe because their attackers aren't Jewish. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.1  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @7    2 weeks ago

Write an article. . . this one is 'full' already with a set of civilians (on both sides) being doomed to death. BTW, since you don't care about Gazan civilians fancy you posting about others. Red herring. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
7.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @7.1    2 weeks ago
Write an article. . .

Many already on the web news.  Didn’t you know?

 
 

Who is online



34 visitors