╌>

Jack Smith's Lose-Lose Situation

  

Category:  Op/Ed

Via:  vic-eldred  •  4 weeks ago  •  157 comments

By:   Story by Ewan Palmer

Jack Smith's Lose-Lose Situation
"Smith is in a no-win situation because an appeal or writ will delay the trial even further, but he can't allow Cannon to abdicate her responsibility and make the possibility of jury nullification even more real."

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



S
pecial Counsel  Jack Smith  faces a "no-win situation" if he chooses to react to the latest ruling from the judge overseeing  Donald Trump 's classified records trial, legal experts have said.

Judge  Aileen Cannon , who was nominated to the bench by Trump, has faced frequent criticism for her decisions in the federal criminal case which appear to have favored the former president.

The latest decision from Cannon  has renewed calls for Smith  to try to have her removed from the case. It revolves around Trump and his lawyers' disputed arguments put forward in a motion to dismiss stating that the Presidential Records Act allowed the  Republican  undisputed authority to categorize classified materials as his personal property. This would  mean Trump did not break any law  by removing them from the White House in January 2021.

On Monday, Cannon asked lawyers for Trump and Smith's office team to submit "competing scenarios" laying out possible jury instructions regarding the interpretation of the Presidential Records Act, including whether a  president "has sole authority"  to categorize records as "personal or presidential" during their time in office.

The move was criticized as potentially asking a jury to lean towards Trump's views of the Presidential Records Act, or allow Cannon to dismiss the case entirely, without giving Smith a chance to appeal against any decision to the US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.

Neama Rahmani, former federal prosecutor and president of West Coast Trial Lawyers, told  Newsweek  that Smith could try and have Cannon removed over the jury instructions request, or refuse to comply, both of which could be detrimental to the federal prosecutor in his attempt to convict Trump.

"Judge Cannon's bizarre ruling is yet another instance that clearly benefits Trump and demonstrates that she is in over her head as a judge. The issue is a question of law that she should decide, not a question of fact for the jury," Rahmani said .

"Smith is in a no-win situation because an appeal or writ will delay the trial even further, but he can't allow Cannon to abdicate her responsibility and make the possibility of jury nullification even more real."

A similar claim was made by former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Litman in a scathing opinion piece for the  Los Angeles Times,  in which he suggested Cannon has "truly crossed the line into running interference" for the former president with her latest decision.

"Cannon may have hit upon a strategy that gives Trump the delay he wants and then dismisses the case once a jury has been sworn in—while never exposing herself to being reined in or forced off the case by the 11th Circuit," Litman wrote.

"All of which leaves Smith facing a tricky choice. He can adhere to the letter of the judge's order and acquiesce in potentially laying the groundwork to dismiss the case at an irremediable point. Or he can refuse to go along, risk Cannon's ire and try to position the prosecution to appeal if she actually does something reviewable," Litman added.


"It's not an easy call—especially when the umpire seems to be playing for the other team."

A spokesperson for Smith's office declined to comment.

Elsewhere, Joyce Vance, a frequent Trump critic and former  Barack Obama -appointed attorney, called on Smith to file a motion to recuse Cannon following her jury instructions request,  despite the delay  it will cause for the trial.

The timing of Trump's federal classified documents case, expected to be pushed back beyond its  current scheduled date of May 20,  has additional significance.

If Trump, the presumptive 2024 Republican nominee, beats President  Joe Biden  in November's election before the classified documents trial has taken place, Trump could then order the  Department of Justice  to drop the federal case into him once he enters office.

"Filing a motion for recusal now would almost certainly mean the case can't be tried ahead of the election because of the time it would take a new judge to get up to speed and the pendency of issues regarding the use of classified information," Vance wrote in her Civil Discourse blog.


"But it would be better to run the risk of delay than it would be to give Cannon the opportunity to derail the prosecution in a way that would give her the final say over the fate of the case."


Tags

jrDiscussion - desc
[]
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    4 weeks ago

We have now come full circle or as some would call it "karma."

4 cases that blew up in the faces of evil prosecutors.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    4 weeks ago

You support the most unfit presidential candidate in the history of this country.[]   

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    4 weeks ago

You mean Brandon the Human Fuck Up Machine? Sorry he is the sole problem of Democrats, leftists, and the TDS driven that voted him into office.

He can't win on the issues; so Democrats are using lawfare to achieve the goal. Both on Trump and by trying to keep those independents that might draw votes from Brandon from being on the ballot.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.2  CB  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.1    4 weeks ago

Your shtick is tired and overused. 

Word cloud:

BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE. 

BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE. 

BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE. 

BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE. 

BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.3  Gsquared  replied to  CB @1.1.2    4 weeks ago

It's the right wing mantra, CB.  They hope that if they chant it non-stop, they might actually start believing it, because they know it's all B.S.  Certainly, no one else believes it..

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    4 weeks ago
You support the most unfit presidential candidate in the history of this country.

I'm pretty sure Vic doesn't support Traitor Joe.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.1.5  bugsy  replied to  CB @1.1.2    4 weeks ago

But you believe the constant use of "some MAGAs" is perfectly OK.

Odd logic.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.1.6  MrFrost  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.1    4 weeks ago
TDS

I doubt John has trump devotion syndrome. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1.1.7  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  MrFrost @1.1.6    4 weeks ago
I doubt John has trump devotion syndrome.

While I know that the member is NOT the topic of the article, it is more of an obsession than devotion. And all members who pay attention know it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.8  CB  replied to  bugsy @1.1.5    4 weeks ago

Look "bugsy" when MAGAs practice compromise and stop excluding people using your worldview and instead include others or at least stop trying to demonize, 'monsterize,' name-call, and stop all the misinformation flying on this site from MAGAs keyboards I will evaluate a more pleasant use of the term. As for the phrase: "Some MAGAs," it stays because MAGAs are part of a MAGA "movement." MAGAs named the movement—yourselves. Not me.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
1.1.9  Right Down the Center  replied to  CB @1.1.8    4 weeks ago

6 MAGAs in one post.  I am not sure but that may be a record.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.10  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @1.1.9    4 weeks ago

Don't let context bother your focus on inconsequentials there, RDtC. ;) I suggest you pull your 'dragnet' up out of the deep.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    4 weeks ago
We have now come full circle or as some would call it "karma."

Where is the traditional conservative value of the rule of law?

Delaying a trial in the hope that Trump is elected and can then squash the indictments and never stand trial is not operating under the rule of law ... it is subverting the rule of law.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
1.2.1  Greg Jones  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago

If Biden is not prosecuted for intentionally taking classified documents home as a Senator and Vice President, then Trump shouldn't stand trial either. The authorities knew that Trump's documents were under lock and key and were negotiating with Trump for their return. Biden's records were not secured, and he even shared them with his ghost writer, who later destroyed evidence.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago

My question is whether or not the American public is generally just too fucking stupid to realize what's going on, what games are being played. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.3  CB  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago

It's MAGAs wanting what MAGAs want: A takeover of the whole of government: State and Federal. Trump has proven to be their point of the spirit. So what if he gets dirtied up for all the political dirty/filthy work he does and plans to do?!  More importantly, MAGAs have Trump right where they want him: He needs them to get in the White House-they need him to "own the libs" and the. . .Secularists detested by Christian Nationalists.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
1.2.4  Greg Jones  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.2    4 weeks ago

Oh, they know. What the Republicans are doing this time around is to make sure the electorate is as fully informed of the truth about the corruptness of Biden, his administration, and especially his family.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.5  CB  replied to  Greg Jones @1.2.4    4 weeks ago

You have no proof of what you are stating, so that's misinformation. It's wrong to put out partisan misinformation.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.6  devangelical  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.7  TᵢG  replied to  Greg Jones @1.2.1    4 weeks ago
If Biden is not prosecuted for intentionally taking classified documents home as a Senator and Vice President, then Trump shouldn't stand trial either. The authorities knew that Trump's documents were under lock and key and were negotiating with Trump for their return. Biden's records were not secured, and he even shared them with his ghost writer, who later destroyed evidence.

It is amazing that this basic difference never gets past the partisan wall.

Biden did not obstruct the return of the documents;  he cooperated.   Thus his only violation was the violation of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and the PRA is not criminal.

Trump also violated the PRA but then he engaged in the criminal practice of trying to obstruct the safe return of the documents.

Obstruction vs. cooperation.

If Trump had not obstructed and would have simply turned over the documents, he would have simply been in violation of the PRA.  This would have never even hit the news cycle.

Trump obstructed, Biden cooperated.  That is the legal difference and this is all Trump's own doing.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.2    4 weeks ago

It is clear that some of them are smart enough but do not care.  Partisan politics is more important than integrity, truth, the rule of law, morality, ...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Greg Jones @1.2.4    4 weeks ago

My question wasn't looking for deflection or "whatabout" answer, thank you. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.8    4 weeks ago

I consider it unfortunate that "partisan politics" is the "be all" "way of life" for so many Americans.  My God, what a way to live. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.11  CB  replied to  CB @1.2.3    4 weeks ago

Clean up time. My apologies, for not getting the words right the first time. 1.2.3. should open this way:

It's MAGAs wanting what MAGAs want: A takeover of the whole of government: State and Federal. Trump has proven to be their point of the spear.
 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.2.12  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago

Trump is allowed due process just like Hunter and Brandon are.

The more Democrats/leftists bitch about it the more it shows they are not fit to hold power at any level of government.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.2.13  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.7    4 weeks ago

It never ceases to amaze me how leftists don't know the law.

Brandon had classified documents not just from when he was VP; but also as a Senator. He shared classified information with his ghost writer who destroyed evidence knowing full damn well he was in the wrong.

Neither are being charged.

Brandon didn't have the ability either as a Senator or VP to declassify anything. So he intentionally took and held classified information in insecure locations. Chain of custody was broken.

Brandon allowing people that didn't have proper security clearance to look for classified information at his residences is also illegal. Seems the DOJ/FBI couldn't be bothered to do their damn jobs. Wonder why.

Hur didn't exonerate Brandon; he didn't prosecute because he knew he couldn't win in leftist bastions of stupidity like DC.

Our two tier justice system is working at full steam.

Once the law stops applying to everyone guess who will be screaming the loudest?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.14  CB  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.12    4 weeks ago

Trump has due process in civil court. That he and you want a criminal trial for civil violations and proceeding is not anything the court can or ought to oblige. So go on and cry foul. Afterwards, get up, dust your "MAGA" hats off and move on. Oh and just for giggles, Trump just might hit a lucky surprise hole in one. A golfing reference you know.  (Pssst, the two big lotteries are Powerball and Mega Millions throughout this week. Check it out. Trump has about as much a chance of winning it as the rest of us. Put down some money on a gamble!)

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
1.2.15  Right Down the Center  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.13    4 weeks ago
It never ceases to amaze me how leftists don't know the law.[]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.16  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @1.2.15    4 weeks ago

Remarkable. This speaks volumes about those of us who imagine themselves to be independent - but are not!  MAGA (5).

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
1.2.17  Right Down the Center  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.2    4 weeks ago
My question is whether or not the American public is generally just too fucking stupid to realize what's going on, what games are being played. 

Many normal everyday Americans have become immune to the political games politicians play, it has become accepted and expected.   

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
1.2.18  Right Down the Center  replied to  CB @1.2.16    4 weeks ago

Yea yea yea. change the station.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.19  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @1.2.18    4 weeks ago

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.2.20  Gsquared  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.13    4 weeks ago

What's really amazing is that right winger don't know the president's name.  Sad for them.  Very sad.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.21  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.12    4 weeks ago
Trump is allowed due process just like Hunter and Brandon are.

Due process has been in effect.   Trump has been delaying due process.

If Trump is successful and delays his criminal trials and is then elected, he will kill the trials.   Is that due process?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.22  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.13    4 weeks ago
It never ceases to amaze me how leftists don't know the law.

I am not surprised at all that you ignore the law and simply spin this for Trump.

Trump obstructed, Biden cooperated.  That is the legal difference in grand summary.

Obviously you do not understand the PRA nor do you understand the classified documents indictment, the facts of the case, and the laws involved.

Partisan bullshit is not an argument.   

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.23  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Right Down the Center @1.2.17    4 weeks ago

I guess being a politician is little more than a paying job, and the politicians are just in it to preserve their positions (and make money) more than representing the wishes of their electorates.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.24  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.21    4 weeks ago

I think if the ignoramuses keep calling Biden "Brandon" we should start calling Trump "Gump" or "Plump".  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.25  TᵢG  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.24    4 weeks ago

I think it would be better to continue to operate as rational adults.

Childish name-mangling, etc. illustrates emotional thinking and the lack of a cogent argument.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
1.2.26  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.24    4 weeks ago

Sometime I say "gol-darn it" when I really want to say "goddamit" , I use "Let's Go Brandon" the same way because I really want to say what it is the substitute for.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.27  CB  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago

For months now. . .I have been feeling that I have been watching theater. A theater of the absurd, if you will. 

In my mind's eye, I see MAGA men and women sitting in think-tank meetings, 'quiet rooms' and in saunas whispering to each other about plans to take over all of civil society, from McConnell and his calculated speech to the senate assembly immediately after the GOP senate membership did not vote to impeach Trump whom "Mitch" stated was guilty as sin and 'somebody' - if only somebody- in the DOJ or state systems would indict him.

It was a speech prepared and delivered 'perfectly ahead of time (in a quiet space between collaborators). 

I see Trump lawyers making 'rounds' like lobbyists do to state and federal leaders offices whispering "plausible" scenarios where, with acceptance from our 'red-state' leaders, Trump and his supporters could slap, punch, and bang truth around until it becomes malleable and able to take a new 'obedient' form.

I see Trump surrogates going to people with 'black faces' and whispering to them that for power, influence, and fame—they can achieve it-it's only a campaign away if only they become grifters who ignore their own people . . . and become friends of colorblind politics and policies which (hint-hint and wink/nod) 'everybody' knows is a ploy to keep black faces grounded in the dirt like a flat anchor stuck on the bottom of the sea while whiteness regains it footing for another 'thousand' years above the black masses. (Shame on you Senator Tim Scott for not living up to the standard set by Senator Edward Brooke (1967-1979). 

I see succulently warm hot tubs around towns where the GOP bunch can bump into and sit down at swanky lounge stations with supreme court justices where they can stealthily and quietly be 'coached' in subtle ways to bring cases which can be laid before them, or even "solicited" through dissent by wealthy, influential, powerful men and women who have open access to places in the country. . .the world where some (many) can't go or be found.

I see men and women whispering and talking about exclusions and inclusions of peoples who should not be allowed to 'get away' from their captured states of existence. . . and what tactics will be deployed to keep them 'kept' or returned to a captive state.

It's a takeover. It's been arranged. It's execution of a plan. Its "Project 2025." It's MAGAs following a strategy to repossess what has been lost. 

No, they are not listening to us. Not now. They are closing on the 'game' and Trump is paramount to its conclusion. 

There is no rule of law in MAGA "country." There is only conservative leadership for all! And they will tell you, us that they should have never conceded anything to 'dirty' compromise in the first place. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.28  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.2.27    4 weeks ago

I see a demagogue phenomenon.   There are enough gullible GOP voters to provide a solid base for Trump.   That base gave him momentum via polls which then carried forth into the primaries.   His supporters now are his gullible MAGA sycophants plus millions of GOP members who are just going with the flow.

Obviously supporting Trump to be president of the USA is irrational, irresponsible, and unpatriotic.   He is a scoundrel, a traitor, etc. and if he is unsuccessful delaying his trials, likely to be a convicted felon.   He cares more about himself than the nation as evidenced by him being the only PotUS in US history to attempt to steal a US presidential election through fraud, coercion, lying, and incitement.

On top of that, he will be financially compromised and thus a target for those who seek to buy influence.

He is truly the worst candidate for PotUS in our nation's history yet the GOP had doubled and tripled down on him.   It is a cult at this point.

It is genuinely surreal.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.29  TᵢG  replied to  charger 383 @1.2.26    4 weeks ago

I see no value in me expressing something like "Fuck Trump" or using mangling like "Frump", "Trump-turd", "Orange-man","Diaper Don", ...

I prefer to make arguments without engaging in emotional labeling.   My comments against Trump are based on logic and evidence.   I do not even get an urge to make emotional comments since to me the reality of Trump is more than bad enough.

My views on Trump are grounded in facts and logic.   I have no use for emotive language.

I think the site would be better served if more people would focus on arguments rather than all the emotional nonsense (and, worse, the blatant dishonesty) that we routinely see.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.30  CB  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.29    4 weeks ago

Well, I agree. But I have always detested liars, because it goes against everything I stand for (and have suffered for) in a long life. Therefore, when Trump appears on my television reminding me of his ease at lying and MAGAs come here trying for all they are worth to gaslight the place. . . at some points I simply can contain my outbursts of indignation.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.31  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2    4 weeks ago
Where is the traditional conservative value of the rule of law?

I'm asking the same question.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.32  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.31    4 weeks ago

Then stop cheering when Trump is able to work the system via complicit agents to delay his due process.  

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.33  Split Personality  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.13    4 weeks ago
Brandon didn't have the ability either as a Senator or VP to declassify anything.

Partially incorrect.  Assuming we are talking about VP Biden, he had limited classification powers as defined by the POTUS in 2009.

McClanahan, who also teaches at the George Washington University Law School, said that under a   2009 executive order   signed by Obama, the vice president is included in a list of "original classification authorities," meaning Biden had the power declassify anything he classified. 

The Washington Post also reported vice presidents have the authority to   declassify anything they classified . The  New York Times similarly reported  that the vice president has the power to declassify, while noting the scope of that authority "has never been definitively tested."

Materials that could be classified include military plans, foreign government information or scientific, technological or economic matters relating to national security,   according to the order.

"It is longstanding practice in the executive branch to treat the vice president as having the same amount of authority in that respect as the president unless the president explicitly says otherwise," McClanahan said.

Fact check: Biden had the authority to declassify as vice president (usatoday.com)

That 2009 EO also applied to the Secretary of State.

It also applied to Mike Pence who was not charged because he to cooperated and had "outside lawyers" start searching for classified material in the boxes of "memorabilia" he took home at the end of his term.  Having found them, he too let the FBI search his home and offices after breaking that "chain of custody".

About a week after Attorney General Merrick Garland   appointed a special counsel   to investigate President   Joe Biden’s handling   of classified documents, former Vice President Mike Pence asked an attorney to review four boxes of documents stored in his Indiana home, according to an attorney for Pence.

The lawyer discovered about a dozen classified documents in the boxes, which have since been turned over to the FBI,   CNN first reported   on Tuesday.

What we know about the Pence classified documents: A timeline of events | CNN Politics

Biden & Pence have been treated equally because they cooperated and willingly relinquished anything questionable, even Biden's VP diaries which were clearly legally his to retain.

That pretty much trashes your 2 tiered complaint

Once the law stops applying to everyone guess who will be screaming the loudest?

Donald J Trump will always be the loudest.

 
 
 
goose is back
Sophomore Guide
1.2.34  goose is back  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.22    4 weeks ago
Trump obstructed, Biden cooperated.  That is the legal difference in grand summary.

So, Trump should be facing "only" an obstruction charge"?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.35  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.7    4 weeks ago
Biden did not obstruct the return of the documents;  he cooperated. 

That's what the media is telling you, but no real proof of that.

Only the other side of the coin, you believe media reports and the Biden DOJ that Trump "obstructed" the return of the documents.

Also, what authorization did Biden have, as a Senator and Vic President, where these documents should never had left a SCIF, to be in his possession?

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.2.36  MrFrost  replied to  Greg Jones @1.2.1    4 weeks ago
If Biden is not prosecuted for intentionally taking classified documents home as a Senator and Vice President, then Trump shouldn't stand trial either.

Which one of those two people cooperated with investigators when asked? 

Hint: It wasn't trump. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1.2.37  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  MrFrost @1.2.36    4 weeks ago

He did to an extent. He gave them what he thought they needed. And when they said more, he gave them what he was willing to give. They didn't get specific until they raided the property

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.38  bugsy  replied to  MrFrost @1.2.36    4 weeks ago
Which one of those two people cooperated with investigators when asked? 

How do you know Biden REALLY cooperated?

By keeping these documents for decades, he showed the exact opposite of cooperate.....you know....obstruct.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.39  Split Personality  replied to  bugsy @1.2.38    4 weeks ago
obstruct.

Obstruction is an active word. There was no obstruction by Biden or Pence.

BIDEN: Despite the discovery of classified materials, there is no indication Biden himself was aware of the existence of the records before they were turned over.

The administration has also said that the records were turned over quickly, without any intent to conceal. That’s important because the Justice Department historically looks for willfulness, or an intent to mishandle government secrets, in deciding whether to bring criminal charges.

But even if the Justice Department were to find the case prosecutable on the evidence, the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel has concluded that a president is immune from prosecution during his time in office. Former special counsel Robert Mueller cited that guidance in deciding not to reach a conclusion on whether Trump should face charges as part of his investigation into coordination between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia.

...

TRUMP: The former president possibly faces exposure for obstruction over the protracted battle to retrieve the documents. And, since he’s no longer in office, he wouldn’t be afforded protections from possible prosecution that would apply to a sitting president.

In November, Garland appointed   Jack Smith,   a veteran war crimes prosecutor with a background in public corruption probes, to lead investigations into Trump’s retention of classified documents,

A side-by-side look at the Trump, Biden classified documents | AP News

Trump, Nauta, Babb and others played games with the locks, moved boxes from room to room, eventually moved boxes to an airplane that was taking Trump to NJ and Bedminster and tried to deliberately erase any incriminating security tapes. THAT is obstruction.

Nauta has testified that the dozen or so boxes he loaded onto the plane to Bedminster never came back. That is further obstruction.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.40  CB  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.2.37    4 weeks ago

Sure. Government agencies 'love' being scandalous and what greater scandal can one evoke than to conduct a first: A raid on a former president's private dwelling and search it from top to bottom and key locations on the premises.

Federal agencies 'live' for that kind of thing. Which is why they waited nearly a year long and multiple calls and mailings to retrieve documents from Donald.

Spreading misinformation repeatedly here is wrong.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.41  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @1.2.39    4 weeks ago

it would be pretty funny if any missing documents somehow suddenly materialized and somebody suffered a few perry mason type moments...

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.42  Split Personality  replied to  devangelical @1.2.41    4 weeks ago

The folder with all of the raw documents from the earliest Obama and Trump Russian interference data

was in Mark Meadows possession during the final days of the Trump term.

Now missing. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.43  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @1.2.42    4 weeks ago

how very convenient.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.44  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.9    4 weeks ago

Well, that is all some have to offer.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.45  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.24    4 weeks ago

I have a lot of good ones but I know YOU don't want to stoop so low, couldn't and wouldn't, stoop so low, be so childish and immature.  I limit mine to mostly former 'president' lately.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.46  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @1.2.45    4 weeks ago

although admittedly I was probably the one who coined trumpturd, I don't like to be so immature any longer.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.47  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.2.37    4 weeks ago

That is absolutely unreal.  

'what he thought they needed'

'gave them what he was willing to give'

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

THEY WEREN'T HIS TO KEEP, ANY OF THEM

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.48  CB  replied to  Tessylo @1.2.47    4 weeks ago

The MAGAs' worldview is this: Take what you want, even if hands are closed!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.49  TᵢG  replied to  goose is back @1.2.34    4 weeks ago
So, Trump should be facing "only" an obstruction charge"?

In effect, that is what he is facing.   His willful retention charge was a result of him not cooperating.   

Trump is not being charged with possession of classified documents.   He is charged with obstruction.   Did you not read the indictment??

I summarized the indictment last year:  

The counts:

Counts 1-31:  Willful retention of National Defense Information

Count 32: Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice

Count 33: Withholding a Document or Record

Count 34:  Corruptly Concealing a Document or Record

Count 35: Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation

Count 36: Scheme to Conceal

Counts 37-38:  False Statements and Representations

If Trump had cooperated and returned the documents, he would not only not be facing this indictment, but it is very likely that this would have never made the news cycle.  Trump brought all of this on himself.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.50  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.35    4 weeks ago
That's what the media is telling you, but no real proof of that.

Show me the evidence that suggests Biden did not cooperate in the return of the documents as universally reported.

Only the other side of the coin, you believe media reports and the Biden DOJ that Trump "obstructed" the return of the documents.

Do you ignore everything bad that Trump does?    Just pretend it did not happen?    Should he be found guilty will you claim that the witnesses were all lying, that the evidence was planted, or maybe try to play legally absurd games such as what Trump does when he claims that the PRA allows him to have the documents (it states the opposite)?   

Also, what authorization did Biden have, as a Senator and Vic President, where these documents should never had left a SCIF, to be in his possession?

He likely had no authority.   As I noted, he violated the PRA.   Violating the PRA carries no criminal charges.   And, importantly, he cooperated in the return of the documents.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.51  TᵢG  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.2.37    4 weeks ago

Why are you spinning what happened?   It is not as though members of this site are stupid and will simply accept whitewashed excuses for Trump.   So what is the point?   What are you trying to accomplish?

A former PotUS is not allowed to keep ANY documents that have anything to do with his function as PotUS.   Classified or not.   The only documents allowed are strictly private such as a letter to a family member about non-PotUS matters.

This is what the PRA specifies.   

Trump played games with NARA starting May 6, 2021.  The search took place on Aug. 9, 2022.   15 months!   They treated Trump with all sorts of deference and patience.   His refusal to cooperate is why he is in trouble.

Here is a timeline:  

Jan. 20, 2021: As Trump leaves the White House, he directs the movement of dozens of storage boxes to Mar-a-Lago, prosecutors say. The boxes, packed by Trump and his White House staff, contain newspaper clippings, letters, photos and other mementos from his time in office, but also hundreds of classified documents that, as a former president, he wasn’t authorized to have.

Under the Presidential Records Act, presidential records are considered federal, not private property and must be turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration. Multiple federal laws govern the handling of classified and sensitive documents, including statutes making it a crime to remove such material and keep it at an unauthorized location.

After Jan. 20, 2021: Some boxes brought from the White House are stored on a stage in one of Mar-a-Lago’s gilded ballrooms. A photo in the indictment shows boxes stacked on a stage.

March 15, 2021: Boxes are moved from the ballroom to the business center at Mar-a-Lago.

April 2021: Some boxes are moved into a bathroom and shower. A photo included in the indictment shows them stacked next to a toilet, a vanity and a trash can.

May 2021: Trump directs employees to clean out a storage room in a highly accessible area on Mar-a-Lago’s ground floor so it can be used to store his boxes, the indictment says. Trump also directs that some boxes be brought to his Bedminster, New Jersey, summer residence.

On or about May 6, 2021: Realizing that some documents from Trump’s presidency may be missing, the National Archives asks that he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving the White House. The agency makes subsequent, repeated demands.

June 2021: The National Archives warns Trump through his representatives that it will refer the matter to the Justice Department if he does not comply.

June 24, 2021: Boxes are moved to the storage room. More than 80 boxes are kept there.

July 21, 2021: Trump allegedly shows a military “plan of attack” that he says is “highly confidential” to a writer interviewing him at his Bedminster property. Trump remarks, “as president I could have declassified it. ... Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret,” according to the indictment, citing a recording of the interview.

August or September 2021: Trump allegedly shows a classified map relating to a foreign military operation to a representative of his political action committee at his Bedminster golf course, the indictment says. Trump tells the person that he shouldn’t be showing anyone the map and that the person shouldn’t get too close.

November 2021: Trump directs his executive assistant and “body man” Walt Nauta and another employee to start moving boxes from a storage room to his residence for him to review. Nauta is charged in the indictment as Trump’s co-conspirator.

Dec. 7, 2021: Nauta finds that several of Trump’s boxes have fallen, spilling papers onto the storage room floor, the indictment says. Among them is a document with a “SECRET” intelligence marking. According to the indictment, Nauta texts another Trump employee, “I opened the door and found this,” to which the other employee replies, “Oh no oh no.”

Late December 2021: The National Archives continues to demand that Trump turn over missing records from his presidency. In late December 2021, a Trump representative tells the agency that 12 boxes of records have been found and are ready to be retrieved.

January 17, 2022: Trump turns over 15 boxes to the National Archives. According to the indictment, Nauta and another Trump employee load them into Nauta’s car and take them to a commercial truck for delivery to the agency.

The boxes are found to contain   197 documents with classified markings , including 69 marked confidential, 98 secret and 30 top secret. Some documents have markings suggesting they include information from highly sensitive human sources or the collection of electronic “signals” authorized by a court under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Feb. 9, 2022: The National Archives refers the matter to the Justice Department after a preliminary review finds the boxes contain numerous classified documents. The special agent in charge of the agency’s Office of the Inspector General writes, “Of most significant concern was that highly classified records were unfoldered, intermixed with other records” and otherwise improperly identified.

Feb. 10, 2022: Trump’s Save America PAC releases a statement insisting the return of the documents had been “routine” and “no big deal.” Trump insists the “papers were given easily and without conflict and on a very friendly basis,” and adds, “It was a great honor to work with” the National Archives “to help formally preserve the Trump Legacy.”

Feb. 18, 2022: In a letter to a congressional oversight committee, the National Archives reveals the boxes contained classified information and confirms the Justice Department referral. Trump’s Save America PAC releases another statement insisting, “The National Archives did not ‘find’ anything,” but “were given, upon request, Presidential Records in an ordinary and routine process to ensure the preservation of my legacy and in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

March 30, 2022: The FBI opens its investigation.

April 12, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump that, at the Justice Department’s request, it intends to provide the FBI with the 15 boxes he turned over on Jan. 17, 2022. Trump’s representative asks for an extension until April 29.

April 26, 2022: The grand jury investigation begins.

April 29, 2022: The Justice Department asks Trump’s lawyers for immediate access to the 15 boxes, citing national security interests and the need for “an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported.” Trump’s lawyers again ask for an extension, saying they need to review the material to “ascertain whether any specific document is subject to privilege.”

May 10, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump’s lawyers that it will provide the FBI access to the boxes as soon as May 12.

May 11, 2022: A grand jury issues a subpoena to Trump and his office requiring that they turn over all classified materials in their possession.

May 23, 2022: Trump’s lawyers advise him to comply with the subpoena, but Trump balks, telling them, “I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes.” Prosecutors, citing notes from one of the lawyers, say Trump wondered aloud about dodging the subpoena, asking his counsel, “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?” and ”isn’t it better if there are no documents?”

May 26, 2022: Nauta is interviewed by the FBI and, according to prosecutors, repeatedly lies about his knowledge of the movement of boxes at Mar-a-Lago. Nauta claims he wasn’t aware of boxes being brought to Trump’s residence for his review and says he didn’t know how boxes turned over to the National Archives got to Trump’s residence.

Nauta also lies when asked whether he knew where Trump’s boxes were stored before they went to his residence and whether they’d been in a secured or locked location, prosecutors say. His reply, according to the indictment: “I wish, I wish I could tell you. I don’t know. I don’t — I honestly just don’t know.”

June 2, 2022: One of Trump’s lawyers returns to Mar-a-Lago to search boxes in the storage room and finds 38 additional classified documents — five documents marked confidential, 16 marked secret and 17 marked top secret. After the search, prosecutors say, Trump asks: “Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?” and makes a plucking motion that the lawyer takes to mean that he should take out anything “really bad” before turning over the papers.

Prior to the search, prosecutors say, Trump had Nauta move 64 boxes from the storage room to his residence. Of those, 30 were moved back to the storage room, leaving 34 boxes in Trump’s residence and out of the lawyer’s sight.

June 3, 2022: FBI agents and a Justice Department lawyer visit Mar-a-Lago to collect the 38 classified documents from Trump’s lawyer. They are in a single accordion folder, double-wrapped in tape. While there, investigators are allowed to go to the storage room, but are “explicitly prohibited” from looking inside boxes, “giving no opportunity” for them “to confirm that no documents with classification markings remained,” according to a court filing.

Trump tells investigations he’s “an open book,” according to the indictment. Another Trump lawyer, acting as his custodian of records, provides investigators a sworn certification that prosecutors say falsely claimed they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over.

Earlier in the day, prosecutors say, some boxes were loaded onto a plane so Trump could take them to Bedminster for the summer.

June 8, 2022: The Justice Department sends Trump’s lawyer a letter asking that the storage room be secured, and that “all of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until farther notice.”

July 2022: The grand jury is shown surveillance video of boxes being moved at Mar-a-Lago.

Aug. 5, 2022: The Justice Department applies for a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, citing “probable cause” that additional presidential records and classified documents were being stored there. U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart approves the application the same day.

Aug. 8 2022: The FBI searches  searches Mar-a-Lago , seizing 102 classified documents — 75 in the storage room and 27 in Trump’s office, including three found in office desks.
 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.52  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.38    4 weeks ago
By keeping these documents for decades, he showed the exact opposite of cooperate.....you know....obstruct.

Obstruction means taking actions to hinder the government from acting to secure known documents.

The government did not know Biden had the documents.   Once Biden's staff informed them, Biden cooperated fully and voluntarily looked for more violations.

Pence did the same thing.

Trump, however, obstructed.   He did not cooperate and return the documents when NARA became aware.   Later on he even tried to hide documents.  That is obstruction.

Biden (and Pence) cooperated.   Trump obstructed (@1.2.51).

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.53  CB  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.50    4 weeks ago

At the end of the long-running narrative:

Hur, who was previously nominated by then-President Donald Trump as U.S. attorney for the District of Maryland, ultimately  absolved Biden of legal culpability  -- writing in his 388-page report published last month that he would not recommend charges against him despite uncovering evidence that the president "willfully retained" classified materials.

No charges, mean "No charges."

So "bugsy" should let this 'item' in his bulky file of gripes and grievances about liberals go out to die. The jig is up. Trump should have imitated Biden as the narrative proves Biden knew how to get clear of a MAGA official , but Trump amateurish played the fool and landed in the hands of a no-bull Special Counsel who wants Trump to have a day in court for not giving the National Archives its belongings.

I would like for the MAGAs on this site to stop asking for discrimination against liberals, while seeking a type of "Affirmative Action" for themselves. . .while denying others its usage.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.54  Split Personality  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.51    4 weeks ago

I believe the correct term is

a preponderance of evidence...

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.55  TᵢG  replied to  Split Personality @1.2.54    4 weeks ago

Quite a substantial preponderance of solid evidence.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.56  bugsy  replied to  Split Personality @1.2.39    4 weeks ago
There was no obstruction by Biden

There actually was. Biden held onto documents for decades until he was busted with them.

An important note.......Confidential and higher documents are held in SCIFs for Congress to read. They are not allowed to take these documents out of these SCIFs.

How did Biden get custody of these documents if he was not allowed to remove them?

Here is some help....

Think Scooter Libby.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.57  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.50    4 weeks ago
Show me the evidence that suggests Biden did not cooperate in the return of the documents as universally reported

Besides what the BIDEN DOJ told you, show me where he did.

"Do you ignore everything bad that Trump does?    Just pretend it did not happen?   "

Nope.....but it shows that you, et al, ignore everything that Biden does, ie, see the answer to your first question.

"And, importantly, he cooperated in the return of the documents.  "

Holding documents for decades does not constitute "cooperation".

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.58  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.52    4 weeks ago
Obstruction means taking actions to hinder the government from acting to secure known documents.

Good for you

Putting these documents in several places across the country, all of them not secured properly, constitutes obstruction. Even more importantly, stealing them from a SCIF is even more of a serious violation.

"Once Biden's staff informed them, Biden cooperated fully and voluntarily looked for more violations."

Because that is what the BIDEN DOJ and the left wing media told you.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.59  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.57    4 weeks ago
Besides what the BIDEN DOJ told you, show me where he did.

Shaking your metaphorical head and chanting "I cannot hear you" is no argument.

Nope.....but it shows that you, et al, ignore everything that Biden does, ie, see the answer to your first question.

I have acknowledged what Biden has done from day one.   So this claim is simply bullshit in lieu of an actual argument.   

I have stated what Trump did beyond what both Biden and Pence did.   It is this extra bit by Trump that landed him in trouble.   And that extra bit is obstruction .

Holding documents for decades does not constitute "cooperation".

You are redefining words.   That is no argument, it is simply bullshit.   

When the authorities became aware that Biden possessed these documents (and it was Biden's staff who made them aware) did Biden cooperate or did he obstruct.   (Answer:  he fully and immediately cooperated and proactively started looking for more personal violations of the the PRA).

When the authorities became aware that Trump possessed these documents (Trump did not volunteer this information) did Trump cooperate or did he obstruct.   (Answer:  he played games for 15 months and and towards the end engaged in blatant obstruction).

see @1.2.51

Quotable-AR-can-avoid-reality-1280x640-1.jpg

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.60  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.58    4 weeks ago
Because that is what the BIDEN DOJ and the left wing media told you.

44159_2021_6_Fig1_HTML.png

Conspiracy theorists are usually wrong (and look ridiculous).

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.61  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.60    4 weeks ago

Then I suggest an avoidance of conspiracy theories.....

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.62  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.59    4 weeks ago
Shaking your metaphorical head and chanting "I cannot hear you" is no argument.

Correct. I suggest to others to not do it.

"I have stated what Trump did beyond what both Biden and Pence did. "

Your argument shows you believe it is perfectly OK to illegally hold onto classified documents in insecure locations for decades, but want to hammer the guy that had documents is a locked location for a year or two. Biden did a far more serious infraction by STEALING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

"When the authorities became aware that Biden possessed these documents (and it was Biden's staff who made them aware) did Biden cooperate or did he obstruct.   (Answer:  he fully and immediately cooperated and proactively started looking for more personal violations of the the PRA)."

This is what the BIDEN DOJ and left wing media told you.

"(Answer:  he played games for 15 months and and towards the end engaged in blatant obstruction)"

Bad, yes....but nowhere near as bad a ILLEGALLY holding documents for decades.

Your argument is moot.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.63  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.62    4 weeks ago
Your argument shows you believe it is perfectly OK to illegally hold onto classified documents in insecure locations for decades, but want to hammer the guy that had documents is a locked location for a year or two. 

You yet again fail to read.   I have stated many times that having the documents violates the PRA.   So, just so this sinks in, that means that Biden, Pence, and Trump were each wrong.   

Biden did a far more serious infraction by STEALING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

A novel new meaning for the verb "steal".   How can you possibly view Biden "stealing" classified documents yet NOT view Trump as "stealing" classified documents?   What about Pence, did he "steal"?

This is what the BIDEN DOJ and left wing media told you.

Admitting, yet again, that you believe outrageous conspiracy theories.   Stating a conspiracy theory is not an argument.

Bad, yes....but nowhere near as bad a ILLEGALLY holding documents for decades.

Apparently you have no understanding whatsoever of the law here.   You presume that duration matters.   It does not.   What matters is possession and the manner in which possession is relinquished to the authorities.

You invent a new meaning for the verb "steal" and invent your own laws.    On top of that, you continue to ignore Trump's obstruction and instead attempt to argue (pathetically) that Biden stole classified documents but somehow Trump did not.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.64  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.63    4 weeks ago
I have stated many times that having the documents violates the PRA

And I mever disagreed with you. No need to keep arguing that.

Big picture in a few words...

Trump allowed to take documents

Biden not allowed to take documents.

"Admitting, yet again, that you believe outrageous conspiracy theories"

OK, so who else besides the Biden DOJ and left wing media has told you that Biden cooperated?

"A novel new meaning for the verb "steal".   How can you possibly view Biden "stealing" classified documents yet NOT view Trump as "stealing" classified documents?"

Again....in a few words

Trump allowed to retain documents

Biden not allowed to retain documents.

Do better

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.65  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.64    4 weeks ago
Trump allowed to take documents
Biden not allowed to take documents.

How was Trump allowed to take documents?   Apparently you do NOT understand the PRA.

Make an argument instead of engaging in pitiful quips and entirely unsubstantiated claims.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.66  CB  replied to  bugsy @1.2.56    4 weeks ago

Seek answers from DOJ Special Counsel Hur, a fellow republican Trumpist. Or better yet . . . read a summary of the 'report.'  Answers are there! Trumpists devaluing other Trumpists work. That's a big wow!

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.67  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.65    4 weeks ago

The President of the United States has declassification powers. He is allowed to take what he believes is personal papers, among other items. He is allowed to declassify whatever he wants. Did he go about it incorrectly? Probably. Some of what he took probably should not have been taken because they are not classified as personal. As you said, he probably violated the PRA, but that is not a crime.Trump kept his documents in ONE locked location, with two locks applied. Not a recommended way to secure documents, but he did what the FBI instructed him to do.

On the flip side.....Biden never had declassification powers. Every classified document he took remains classified. He took these documents from SCIFs, hence, he stole them. Say Libby Scooter's name. No other spin can counter it.

In addition, all of his documents that he stole were stored in insecure locations, including his freaking garage.

Obviously, you are not fully aware of the law or you would not be defending Biden so heavily and acknowledge that he is a classified document thief. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.68  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  bugsy @1.2.67    4 weeks ago

Aside from all that, three individuals have been criticized within the past few years for the same thing. Only one is being prosecuted.

Another thing I love is that the National Archives, which is supposed to be non-partisan only noticed Trump having documents. Biden only supposedly realized he had them when his DOJ went after Trump.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.69  bugsy  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.68    4 weeks ago

Exactly....It took 40+ years and they never realized Biden had these documents. Supposedly, it was Biden staff that "found" them

More than likely they were afraid of the rightful backlash if someone leaked that Biden also had much more documents in his possession, so the Biden DOJ went with the story that Biden cooperated and returned the documents. Very sure that many, many people, past and present knew these documents existed and where they were, including in the garage.

Of course, his DOJ is not going to charge him with theft of classified information, as that is exactly what he did.

With Trump, they realized missing documents in only 15 months and charge him with obstruction

Total bullshit and anyone with a brain knows this.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.70  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.67    4 weeks ago
The President of the United States has declassification powers.

He must exercise that while PotUS.   Trump did not do so.  Thus the documents he took were NOT declassified.

The PRA does not allow ANY documents to be taken unless they are strictly personal.  It does not matter if they are classified or declassified.   So even if Trump had declassified the documents (he did NOT) it would not matter.

What matters is the fact that he obstructed the safe return of those documents.

As you said, he probably violated the PRA, but that is not a crime.

Yeah, bugsy he 'probably' violated the PRA.   The fact is that he, Biden and Pence each violated the PRA.   Not even a question, this is a fact.   And, as I noted, violating the PRA is indeed NOT criminal.   So merely violating the PRA would not result in criminal charges for Biden, Pence, or Trump.

Trump, however, went well beyond merely violating the PRA!   He obstructed.   Biden and Pence did NOT obstruct.   The obstruction is what is criminal and it is the reason Trump is in trouble.   Read the indictment.   Read the cited laws.   Understand at least the basics of what it is that you are attempting to debate.

Lacking that knowledge, you have no argument, just ridiculous claims.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.71  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.68    4 weeks ago
Aside from all that, three individuals have been criticized within the past few years for the same thing. Only one is being prosecuted.

Vic, do you truly not understand that the commonality of the three is that they violated the (non criminal) PRA?

Do you not understand that ONLY TRUMP violated the law by obstructing the safe return of the documents in his possession?

If Trump had cooperated and returned the documents, he would not be in trouble.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.72  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  bugsy @1.2.69    4 weeks ago
Exactly....It took 40+ years and they never realized Biden had these documents.

Isn't that odd?


More than likely they were afraid of the rightful backlash if someone leaked that Biden also had much more documents in his possession, so the Biden DOJ went with the story that Biden cooperated and returned the documents. Very sure that many, many people, past and present knew these documents existed and where they were, including in the garage.

Right again!


Of course, his DOJ is not going to charge him with theft of classified information, as that is exactly what he did.

If it is a crime, then it is the same for Hillary, Joe & Donald. The dems want to go after Trump on the obstruction, but that was not the original infraction. How things were handled by Biden and Trump involves sentencing after a trial, but the initial act was the same for all three.


With Trump, they realized missing documents in only 15 months and charge him with obstruction

Funny how that works. I spit on the sidewalk and its nothing, Trump does it and it's vandalism.


Total bullshit and anyone with a brain knows this.

Correct.



 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.73  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.71    4 weeks ago
Do you not understand that ONLY TRUMP violated the law by obstructing

That comes AFTER the complaint. If the crime is taking the documents all 3 should have been treated the same.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.74  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.69    4 weeks ago
With Trump, they realized missing documents in only 15 months and charge him with obstruction

You do not even get this fact right.

They noticed the missing documents in May, 2021.   The 15 months is the time from the point they notified Trump that he must return his presidential records until the FBI acted at Mar-a-Lago.   Trump delayed and obstructed for 15 months.

And, yeah, I know you are going to yet again claim that everyone is out to get poor, innocent Trump.    But that ignores the fact that they treated him with deference and respect for 15 months.   He refused to fully cooperate so after 15 months they acted.

All Trump had to do was return the documents and this would have not even been news, much less an indictment.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.75  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.73    4 weeks ago
If the crime is taking the documents all 3 should have been treated the same.

Do you not understand that the PRA is NOT criminal??    If Trump had returned the documents like Biden and Pence did, he would not be indicted.

Drop the partisan wall and figure this out.   It is obvious.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.76  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.74    4 weeks ago
And, yeah, I know you are going to yet again claim that everyone is out to get poor, innocent Trump. 

You'll have to cheat to stop him now.

Thank you to all the dirty democrats for showing the people what you all are capable of.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.77  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.76    4 weeks ago

Wow Vic, just leap out of the argument entirely and resort to emotive language.

Trump, Biden, and Pence violated the PRA.   The PRA, however, does not carry criminal charges.

Trump alone did NOT cooperate.   Trump alone obstructed the safe return of the documents for 15 months.   This was both unnecessary and incredibly stupid.   But Trump did obstruct and that is why he has been indicted.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
1.2.78  Igknorantzruls  replied to  bugsy @1.2.69    4 weeks ago

Total bullshit and anyone with a brain knows this.

Are you referring to your post? The one where within you state Trump was immediately investigated in a mere 15 months ? Do you have any info related to the events that took place in the attempted recovery of documents that were NEVER TRUMPS to possess after leaving office, as they were NEVER HIS, even if you believe Trump possesses magical declassification powers where he can declassify just by thinking about it, it wouldn't matter. When this clown finally goes down, even though you and yours will deny it, you will have been supporting and defending a traitorous scumbag for almost a decade. Wake up people. This is just too inticate to have been designed by somebody or something. This is Trump totally thumbing and flicking off authority as power has rotted his mind. Authority will eventually prevail, but WTF ?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.79  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.77    4 weeks ago
Wow Vic, just leap out of the argument entirely

We have discussed it ad nauseum.

Do you really think people are stupid?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.80  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Igknorantzruls @1.2.78    4 weeks ago
When this clown finally goes down

I'm hoping James goes right after his properties on Monday. That should put him on the fast track to the White House.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.81  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.79    4 weeks ago
Do you really think people are stupid?

Given you wrote this:

Vic@1.2.73If the crime is taking the documents all 3 should have been treated the same.

You are implying that Trump was treated unfairly.   You know (or should know) that the PRA is NOT criminal.  So you know (or should know) that the crime was NOT the taking of the documents.

You know (or should know) that the crime was obstruction in the safe return of said documents.

I am stating the facts and the legal aspects; you are engaging in sophistry.  

So you must be the one who thinks readers are stupid.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
1.2.82  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.80    4 weeks ago
That should put him on the fast track to the White House.

or possibly, the big house Vic

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.83  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.81    4 weeks ago

You are citing the Presidential Records Act. How does that cover Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.84  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Igknorantzruls @1.2.82    4 weeks ago

Want to bet?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.85  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.80    4 weeks ago
I'm hoping James goes right after his properties on Monday. That should put him on the fast track to the White House.

In the past I would have never guessed that someone would be rooting for a traitor to be elected PotUS.   A scoundrel who is the only PotUS in our history to have tried to steal a presidential election through fraud, lying, coercion, and incitement.   An irresponsible, loose-cannon who demonstrably cares more of his ego than he does of the nation.  

But here we are.   And when you deflect to Biden I will note that for all Biden's faults, Trump is an order of magnitude worse.   Fuck party loyalty — Trump should never be given any position of political power.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.86  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.83    4 weeks ago
You are citing the Presidential Records Act. How does that cover Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden?

Read what I am writing.   You should have no need to ask this question of me if you have read what I wrote in this thread alone.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.87  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.86    4 weeks ago

Answer the question.

Clinton had classified documents on a home server. She destroyed them.

IS THAT A CRIME?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.88  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.85    4 weeks ago
In the past I would have never guessed that someone would be rooting for a traitor to be elected PotUS.  

Stop the name-calling. You are voting for a POS who destroyed the country and was corrupt!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.89  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.87    4 weeks ago
Answer the question.

I already did.  The PRA is not criminal.   It does not matter who breaks it, the mere possession of documents is not criminal.

Further, the PRA applies only to the PotUS and VP.   But if Clinton were PotUS or V.P. then it would apply to her too.

Do you truly not understand this??

Clinton had classified documents on a home server. She destroyed them.

If so, she should have been held accountable.   That does not in any way change the fact that Trump was indicted because of his criminal activity.   


You came in here trying to equate Biden, Pence, and Trump via the PRA.   I told you (although you should have already known this) that the PRA does not carry criminal charges.   I also told you (and you should have known this too) that if Trump had simply returned the documents, he would not have been indicted.

But Trump obstructed and that is why he was indicted.   

You cannot argue that so you deflect to Clinton.    Hillary Clinton's case does not change anything other than you deflecting to yet another feeble argument that Trump is being treated unfairly.   Irrelevant, even if true.

Deal with the reality that the guy you are voting for to be the next president almost certainly willingly engaged in criminal activity.   Numerous times.   On top of violating the CotUS and attempting to disenfranchise voters while PotUS.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.90  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.88    4 weeks ago
Stop the name-calling.

What name calling?   The word 'traitor' is not name-calling, it is a descriptive term reflecting Trump's actions.

Distinguish between serious, descriptive labels and emotional/childish name-calling (e.g. "POS").

You are voting for a POS who destroyed the country and was corrupt!

I am voting against Trump.   I cannot help it that Biden is running; I have raised my objections many times.   But to claim that Biden destroyed the country pretty much kills any credibility your comment might have.   Declaring Biden corrupt even though that case is almost dead, further damages the credibility of your comment.

In spite of Biden's negatives, Trump is an order of magnitude worse.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.91  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.72    4 weeks ago
If it is a crime, then it is the same for Hillary, Joe & Donald

You forgot Mike Pence.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.92  Split Personality  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.89    4 weeks ago
I already did.  The PRA is not criminal.   It does not matter who breaks it, the mere possession of documents is not criminal.

Does it feel like Ground Hog Day (the movie) yet?

Round and round we go repeating the facts but...............they have "alternate facts".

btw

The FBI still doesn't know what was in those 15 boxes that were flown to New Jersey.

Probably more charges?

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.93  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.83    4 weeks ago
How does that cover Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden?

Read the EO that Obama signed in 2009 covering that issue.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.94  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.89    4 weeks ago
But if Clinton were PotUS or V.P. then it would apply to her too.

It is about taking the documents.  Did you read the Hur Report?   Why didn't Hur go after Biden?


You cannot argue that so you deflect to Clinton. 

No, I don't deflect. Clinton & Biden had less standing than Trump. You and the PRA, that they weren't even covered by. She violated the law for doing worse than Trump did. Comey took care of her.


Biden gave classified info to a ghost writer and the ghost writer erased it.

IS THAT A CRIME?


Deal with the reality

Deal with the reality that all these cases are political and are destroying the American justice system.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.95  Split Personality  replied to  bugsy @1.2.57    4 weeks ago
Besides what the BIDEN DOJ told you, show me where he did.

Read the Hur report,

 Special counsel Robert Hur concluded in his report that the evidence investigators uncovered falls short of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified materials. What you need to know about the Biden classified documents report : NPR
 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.2.96  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.94    4 weeks ago
are destroying the American justice system.

Politics has been "destroying the American justice system" for roughly 240 years.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.97  TᵢG  replied to  Split Personality @1.2.92    4 weeks ago

It is the modus operandi nowadays.   Certain individuals just keep ignoring facts and repeating nonsense pseudo-arguments.   

Seriously, how hard is to grasp the idea that violating the PRA by taking documents (classified or not) after one's term in office as PotUS or V.P. is a wrongful act but is not criminal?   

And then how hard is it grasp the difference between two PRA violators (Biden and Pence) who fully cooperated in the safe return of documents and the other PRA violator who obstructed the safe return for at least 15 months and, in so doing, committed several felonies?

This is easy to understand yet partisan loyalty apparently demands an attempt —no matter how feeble and confused the argument— to defend Trump.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
1.2.98  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Split Personality @1.2.96    4 weeks ago

i see the GOP and too "right' justices allowing Trump to do his best to undermine our accepted rule of law, on a consistent basis, and basis in fact to me, it be.

He's literally called these rioting traitors, whom all were given all of their rights and a fair trial, 'Hostages'!

AndTrump is going to 'rescue' them. Someone needs to rescue US, from the amount of ignorance ruling over far too many, imho.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.99  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.94    4 weeks ago
It is about taking the documents. 

No it is not about taking the documents.   It is about willfully refusing to return the documents.   Taking and holding the documents violates the PRA.   Refusing to return them when asked is what gets one into trouble because that is criminal.   Attempting to hide documents is even worse.   Lying about documents, etc. is all very bad criminal shit.

Biden cooperated in the safe return of the documents.   Had Trump done likewise, we likely would have not even known he had them.

Deal with the reality that all these cases are political and are destroying the American justice system.

You keep deflecting.   Focus on the issue, Vic.   

It is a very stupid argument to claim that these cases are merely political.   That would mean that they are without merit.   Clearly, the classified documents and especially the Jan 6th cases have substantial merit.   

Politics affects everything.   So I will give you that.   But you are trying to pretend that Trump is being held accountable merely for political reasons and that is exactly why (I believe) Trump is even running — so that people like you will make that exact claim.

Trump engaged in serious wrongdoing and it is proper that he be held accountable.   Especially, and by far, for his actions post his election loss.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Freshman Quiet
1.2.100  Igknorantzruls  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.99    4 weeks ago
Trump engaged in serious wrongdoing and it is proper that he be held accountable.   Especially, and by far, for his actions post his election loss.

even though undeserved, i wouldn't care so much how they give Trump the not guilty on anything pass, but the shit he pulled post November is of a whole different species

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.101  TᵢG  replied to  Igknorantzruls @1.2.100    4 weeks ago
... but the shit he pulled post November is of a whole different species

And that is what I care about.   I care about holding Trump accountable for his outrageous actions post his election loss.   That affects the nation.   Trump set a horrible precedent that will manifest more bad behavior (by lowering the bar).   We have already seen this occur as GOP election losers pull the same crap (at a lower level).

Further, Trump's modus operandi seems to have taken over the GOP.   It might be me but the political discourse nowadays (especially from the GOP) is replete with lies.   They are not even trying to hide it anymore.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.102  CB  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.85    4 weeks ago

We have this predicament because of people like this. They are as responsible for this mess as Trump, if not more so.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.103  CB  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.101    4 weeks ago
It might be me but the political discourse nowadays (especially from the GOP) is replete with lies. 

I don't know many of our group, ethnic, racial backgrounds- beyond possibly being White/Caucasian, Black, or Native American so this might reach you (and others) or not:

What's happening here reminds me so much of growing up in the sixties -watching how much talk/discussion/arguing/hoping/frustrations/praying it took to reach those In-charge of state and federal governments COUNTRYWIDE to try to get them to understand, see, and hear us - to feel our frustrations, losses, . . . deficiencies due to neglect and deliberate poverty - as black people wanting to live our humanity and prosper too.

Thankfully, things started to get markedly better for us in late 70s (seeming with no special 'anything' happening, but of course it was the hard, laborious, work of many civil rights leaders on whom shoulders the "seventies blacks" would stand) due to all the civil rights work done by President Johnson and "Company" - including some republicans and their votes in the House and Senate. 

But now I can clearly and plainly see that the dark forces of 'old' in our country are arrayed on the horizon and are 'trotting' forward to sweep away all the progress - progressives and their liberal friends have made across this country.

This is not Republicans wanting to do something good or something better for all of usThis is the GOP/MAGAs feverishly waking up every day and going to bed late at night to revert the country back to TRIBALISM and NARROW-MINDED people divisions and separations, and forcing people to not trust in one another but instead look on each other with suspicion and 'dread' of the other. Thus, the dehumanization and demonizations and holding firmly to negative stereotypes of the Other.

It's all trying to knock the 'lid' off its can and pour itself back into way it was "before."

I will tell you something else as well.

This is MAGAs with their numbers hoping like hell that they can 'go viral' and draw/scare/challenge White liberals to leave off on the minorities and return to the 'fold' of being conservative and TRIBLE.

That is what I see and I am looking right at some of them in here, as their rhetoric is toxic. There has always been a certain group of "Americans" in this country that banded together to keep those of us who were suppressed by them under their political and physical control. Nowadays, they feel that they are losing on both accounts.

And,. . . these people understand plain English, these people understand what you are telling them, but they want what they want (as they did in the past) and they literally CHOOSE to pretend not to hear and understand, because that would mean they would have to give up suppressing their fellow citizens.

(TiG, my friend, I don't know how it happens that I always have so much to share with and through you. It is what is it is.  I hope you don't mind.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.104  CB  replied to  CB @1.2.103    4 weeks ago

One more thing. I do not know why this country is twisting itself up economically to the tune of trillions of dollars. . . but, our country's spending has little to nothing to do with these damnable culture wars which suppress otherwise good people.

Citizens who can benefit this country if for one indefinite 'minute' we could stop fighting for our lives and get on with the business of helping this country be its best.  We can fix our problems together, but we need everybody onboard and "in it to win it"!

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.105  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.74    4 weeks ago
They noticed the missing documents in May, 2021.

Thanks for highlighting my point.

I previously said the documents were not noticed until 15 months. You strengthened my point by stating they were actually noticed to be missing only 4 months after Trump left office.

In contrast, they didn't even know Biden had decades of papers until his staff "found" these documents.

"And, yeah, I know you are going to yet again claim that everyone is out to get poor, innocent Trump."

Like many times before, you are wrong.

You never answered the question as to how Biden was able to obtain all of these documents, especially as a Senator, when they only way to view them is through a SCIF, and are required to return the documents before they leave the SCIF.

I will answer the question for you (although you should already know this)...he stole them.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.106  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.99    4 weeks ago
Biden cooperated in the safe return of the documents. 

Only because he realized he had done the same exact thing, but at a magnitude worse, after he sicced his DOJ on Trump.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.107  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.105    4 weeks ago
I will answer the question for you (although you should already know this)...he stole them.

There is no way you can know this; speculation is not factual.   But even if Biden 'stole' the documents, that is just more deflection from Trump.

The Trump indictment is about willful possession and obstruction, not about how he came to possess the documents.   Trump is not charged criminally with removing the documents (and you would have to label this 'stealing' to be consistent).   He is charged with obstructing officials from securing the documents.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.108  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @1.2.106    4 weeks ago
Only because he realized he had done the same exact thing, but at a magnitude worse, after he sicced his DOJ on Trump.

Yet again we see the pitiful faux obtuseness tactic.

You continue to ignore that the difference between Trump and (Biden,Pence) is that Trump obstructed the return whereas both Biden and Pence cooperated.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.109  Tessylo  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.108    4 weeks ago

The 'boss' even told two of his people Nuata (spelling?) and another to erase the footage of the movement of Top Secret/Classified documents at Mar-a-Lago

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.110  CB  replied to  bugsy @1.2.105    4 weeks ago

The problem for MAGA is that you have no authority to make such a judgement where it counts. From comment 6:

The former president [Trump] possibly faces exposure for obstruction over the protracted battle to retrieve the documents. And, since he’s no longer in office, he wouldn’t be afforded protections from possible prosecution that would apply to a sitting president.

Biden did not obstruct when asked. Trump made the government come and get its 'stuff'! It's an important distinction your 'rage at the system' is not encompassing for obvious and blatant partisan reasons. We see MAGAs right where they are in their blind partisanship.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.111  CB  replied to  bugsy @1.2.106    4 weeks ago
The former president {Trump] possibly faces exposure for obstruction over the protracted battle to retrieve the documents. And, since he’s no longer in office, he wouldn’t be afforded protections from possible prosecution that would apply to a sitting president.

You keep repeating MAGAs' version of truthful hyperbole and we will continue to push back with truth (without the hyperbole)j!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.112  CB  replied to  Tessylo @1.2.109    4 weeks ago

Moreover, Trump keeps flipping and flopping. . . (otherwise known as, He needs to get his lie straight) he has immunity; the documents are his personal property, he declassified 'everything' in the boxes (in his mind), and so on and so forth.

In any case, the Archive/Archivists had enough of the bull. And told the government to get its stuff. Now I presume the consequences of withholding documents against  nice courteous request/s for their return was privately explained to this ridiculously stubborn and nauseous former president. . .and he stood on his indefensible ground anyway. . . until the documents were yanked out from under him.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.113  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.107    4 weeks ago
There is no way you can know this; speculation is not factual.

I do know this for a fact.......let me explain no matter how you refuse to accept facts

The PRA covers the president and VP..not Senators, not Congressmen, not you, not I. In it is says the president and vice president is allowed to remove documents, albeit personal.. It is not a crime to remove said documents because, as you have acknowledged, it is not a crime. Yes, there are rules on how to do this. Trump was probably wrong in his assessment.

However, someone other than the president and vice president, that takes classified information is in the classification of a thief. There is no act that allows this.

Case in point....There was a sailor on a sub several years ago that took pictures of the engine room on his cell phone. He said he took the pictures to show to his son. Was that the truth or was he planning on selling them to someone.

Doesn't matter because he was charged with possessing classified information and was put in prison for it.

When I was in the Navy, we were briefed every year on how to handle classified information and the consequences of possessing these docs unlawfully.

Now, look at Biden. One can argue that he had authority as vice president, but not as a senator. He is known to have had (maybe still has) documents scattered all over the country that went back to his senator days. None of the places he hid the documents were in secure places. Almost anyone could have had access to him, ESPECIALLY the ones in his home and garage.

Lucky for him, Hur saw the confusion and and cognitive failure in Biden and between that and having a DC jury, there is no way he would be convicted.

Glad I can help, but I refuse to go in a circle jerk so this will be the last I will opine on it.

You can have the last word.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.114  bugsy  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.108    4 weeks ago
You continue to ignore that the difference between Trump and (Biden,Pence) is that Trump obstructed the return whereas both Biden and Pence cooperated.

Let me use a quote from one of YOUR posts....

"There is no way you can know this; speculation is not factual. "

The Biden DOJ is not truth tellers, especially if it calls out their boss.

Have a good day!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.115  CB  replied to  bugsy @1.2.113    4 weeks ago
Lucky for him, Hur saw the confusion and and cognitive failure in Biden and between that and having a DC jury, there is no way he would be convicted.

In the back-handed game of silliness: MAGAs won't give up (or compromise). So here we are. You admitting that Special Counsel Hur did not charge or could not charge (whatever/whichever) and so the matter is ended and yet you tragically continue on this one man or 'pack' crusade to beat the horse that's dead!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.116  CB  replied to  bugsy @1.2.114    4 weeks ago
The Biden DOJ is not truth tellers, especially if it calls out their boss.

The irony here is it is the law that president's get to pick their own Attorney General of the United States. If you don't like it: Gripe to the system. Take you complain to Capitol hill. Try to get it changed (if you can). We can't fix it online for you or MAGAs. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.2.117  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.2.116    4 weeks ago
The irony here is it is the law that president's get to pick their own Attorney General of the United States

What is the irony that you see?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2  Gsquared    4 weeks ago

Cannon is hard at work trying to earn her invitation for an around the world private yacht cruise "gift" from Nazi memorabilia collector and Clarence Thomas benefactor, Harlan Crow.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2.1  Ronin2  replied to  Gsquared @2    4 weeks ago

Democrats are working hard to turn this country into a more woke, broke, and racially divided version of China.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Gsquared  replied to  Ronin2 @2.1    4 weeks ago

Only in reactionary Bizarro World.  In the real word your comment is a complete fallacy.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.2  CB  replied to  Ronin2 @2.1    4 weeks ago

That is a. . . untruth. That you see efforts at national unity and a fulfillment of the aspirations of freedom for all in this country through its acceptance of diversity and what it truly means as a "woke, broke, and cause of division" just puts on display the foolishness that MAGAs are really seeking in trying to 'return' to the womb of this country. . .with all its 'birthing' and 'youthful' national problems, conflicts, and even war.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gsquared @2    4 weeks ago

Only in reactionary Bizarro World.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
2.2.1  Gsquared  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2    4 weeks ago

Yes, reactionaries like Cannon, Thomas and Crow are in their own Bizarro World.  As per your comment, you obviously agree.  Cannon is  part of the reactionary clique trying to bring down the country.  Reactionaries like Cannon, Thomas and Crow are a bizarre group indeed.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.2.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gsquared @2.2.1    4 weeks ago
As per your comment, you obviously agree.

See I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.3  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @2.2.1    4 weeks ago

Bought and paid for 'judges' like Ginni, I mean that disgraceful and totally lacking in ethics scumbag Clarence and Cannon.  

That two - tiered justice system that the 'right' is always fucking claiming.  

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3  JBB    4 weeks ago

Well then, it looks like there will be plenty of time for Trump's January 6th trial in DC before the election, afterall...

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4  Sean Treacy    4 weeks ago

A natural problem when lawfare politicizes the courtroom. The election is am arbitrary date  whose only meaning is political. There’s no legal reason to rush the case before November.   The justice system should not be held hostage by a political prosecutor whose strategy is wholly determined by politics. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1  TᵢG  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    4 weeks ago
There’s no legal reason to rush the case before November.  

Knowing if your nominee committed one or more felonies before electing him PotUS may not be a strictly legal reason, but it is certainly a reason to not allow intentional delays of justice.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  TᵢG @4.1    4 weeks ago

The choice is the prosecutors. He can do the right thing for the case and appeal which may result in a delay, or the politically Expedient thing and rush to trial.  The choice will tell you which master smith Serves, justice or joe Biden’s political needs.  

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
4.1.2  Greg Jones  replied to  TᵢG @4.1    4 weeks ago
"Knowing if your nominee committed one or more felonies"

Isn't that up to a court of law to determine. Neither you nor I know all the facts in this case. We're still a nation of laws, fair trials, the presumption of innocence, and due process.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.1.1    4 weeks ago
The choice is the prosecutors. He can do the right thing for the case and appeal which may result in a delay, or the politically Expedient thing and rush to trial.  

What a remarkable distortion of reality.   Having a trial proceed at a normal pace rather than be delayed is spun as a "rush to trial".

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.2    4 weeks ago

What do you think I was talking about?   Did you read my post??   My point was that the trial is how it will be determined if Trump committed one or more felonies.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Sean Treacy  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.3    4 weeks ago
 Having a trial proceed at a normal pace rather than be delayed is spun as a "rush to trial"

Of course it is. If the prosecutor is making tactically bad choices to ensure a trial before an arbitrary date its most definitely a rush to trial. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.1.1    4 weeks ago

Trump is facing 4 criminal charges and his lawyers are trying to get him off on technicalities in all four of them. What an embarrassment for the United States of America. 

Trump doesn't want his day in court , he is desperately trying to avoid his day in court. all 4 of them.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
4.1.7  Greg Jones  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.4    4 weeks ago

You said he committed felonies, when that has not been determined to be a fact.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
4.1.8  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.6    4 weeks ago
"Trump is facing 4 criminal charges and his lawyers are trying to get him off on technicalities in all four of them"

That is how our system of justice works. Why is this an embarrassment to the United States of America?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.7    4 weeks ago

Again you fail to read.  You did not even read what you quoted:

TiG@4.1 ☞ Knowing if your nominee committed one or more felonies ...

The word IF is fundamental to my statement.   I am saying that the resolution of the trial would let Trump supporters know IF he committed felonies or not.

Good grief man.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.10  CB  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.1.5    4 weeks ago

Prosecutors do not set court calendars, according to my understanding. Clearly, if there is an issue of 'rush' for a trial. . .the judge would have to rule on it. MAGAs are letting their politics for Trump overwhelm them.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.11  MrFrost  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.3    4 weeks ago
Having a trial proceed at a normal pace rather than be delayed is spun as a "rush to trial".

You have to remember, these are the same people that see equality as oppression. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.12  MrFrost  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.8    4 weeks ago
That is how our system of justice works.

If I was accused of something and I was innocent, I would want the trial TOMORROW. Yet trump always always always delays. Why?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.13  JohnRussell  replied to  MrFrost @4.1.12    4 weeks ago

he's not innocent. ( that was easy)

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
4.1.14  MrFrost  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.13    4 weeks ago
he's not innocent. ( that was easy)

Obviously. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5  CB    4 weeks ago

Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978,  44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209 , governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations.  The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

  • Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.
  • Requires that Vice-Presidential records be treated in the same way as Presidential records.
  • Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President.
  • Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.
  • Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing.
  • Establishes in law that any incumbent Presidential records (whether textual or electronic) held on courtesy storage by the Archivist remain in the exclusive legal custody of the President and that any request or order for access to such records must be made to the President, not NARA.
  • Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office.
  • Establishes a process by which the President may restrict and the public may obtain access to these records after the President leaves office; specifically, the PRA allows for public access to Presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years.
  • Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).
  • Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489.
  • Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts:  any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account.  (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)
  • Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6  CB    4 weeks ago

COULD EITHER PRESIDENT FACE CHARGES RELATED TO THE DISCOVERY OF THE DOCUMENTS?

BIDEN: Despite the discovery of classified materials, there is no indication Biden himself was aware of the existence of the records before they were turned over.

The administration has also said that the records were turned over quickly, without any intent to conceal. That’s important because the Justice Department historically looks for willfulness, or an intent to mishandle government secrets, in deciding whether to bring criminal charges.

But even if the Justice Department were to find the case prosecutable on the evidence, the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel has concluded that a president is immune from prosecution during his time in office. Former special counsel Robert Mueller cited that guidance in deciding not to reach a conclusion on whether Trump should face charges as part of his investigation into coordination between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia.

On Thursday, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to investigate. Robert Hur, the former Trump-appointed U.S. attorney in Maryland, will lead the investigation. He is taking over from the top Justice Department prosecutor in Chicago, John Lausch, who recommended to Garland last week that a special counsel be appointed.

TRUMP: The former president possibly faces exposure for obstruction over the protracted battle to retrieve the documents. And, since he’s no longer in office, he wouldn’t be afforded protections from possible prosecution that would apply to a sitting president.

In November, Garland appointed  Jack Smith,  a veteran war crimes prosecutor with a background in public corruption probes, to lead investigations into Trump’s retention of classified documents, as well as key aspects of a separate probe involving the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection and efforts to undo the 2020 election.

 
 

Who is online




85 visitors