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Opinion: The two wars that broke America

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  kavika  •  one month ago  •  77 comments

By:   BY HARLAN ULLMAN

Opinion: The two wars that broke America

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T





The  mood  in America is bitter. 

Hyper-partisanship has sabotaged governance and government. Extremes of left and right have infected politics and turned citizens against each other on virtually every issue. Anger and resentment now inform what passes for political dialogue.

How did the U.S. arrive at a condition where  more than 70 percent  of the public does not want either of the two likely presidential candidates on the ballot? About the same number are  dissatisfied or very dissatisfied with the state of the nation. 


The answer rests in two wars that broke  America.

The first was Vietnam. Sixty years ago this August, Congress  passed  the  Tonkin Gulf Resolution  with only two dissenting votes that committed the nation to war.  At that point , a large majority of Americans believed and trusted in the government and largely supported it.  

That figure  has reversed  since the Vietnam War. Both Democratic and Republican administrations lied about the war beginning with the Tonkin Gulf crisis, in which North Vietnamese boats  did not attack  two U.S. Navy destroyers operating in international waters, as had been alleged.  

LINK TO SEEDED ARTICLE: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/opinion-the-two-wars-that-broke-america/ar-BB1jhGjw?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=ee5be70054b84d8489ee8599578584b6&ei=13


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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Kavika     one month ago

We jumped from one diaster to another. 

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
1.1  fineline  replied to  Kavika @1    one month ago

Disaster is putting it lightly . America always seems to be slow on the draw and quick on the trigger, resulting in a shot in the foot . Lessons from Vietnam were forgotten faster than the call to arms for Iraq . I'm of a mind, that if the draft had still been in effect, the push for conflict in the Middle East would have been more restrained . We must remember that old man Bush first picked that scab regarding Kuwait and got the ball rolling toward our current never ending "war on terrorism". Thanks to False Churches, Bigotry and Greed it's going to be never ending .   

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  fineline @1.1    one month ago

And we can see the middle east currently.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @1.1    one month ago
We must remember that old man Bush first picked that scab regarding Kuwait and got the ball rolling toward our current never ending "war on terrorism".

Exactly, rallying the international community to punish aggression and liberate a small country invaded by its larger, authoritarian neighbor was a terrible thing.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.1.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  fineline @1.1    one month ago

A most excellent post Kavika. Thank you for sharing this.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.4  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Ed-NavDoc @1.1.3    one month ago

Thanks, Doc you and I sure do know what one of those wars was like.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @1    one month ago

the poor fascists are running out of ways to kill off their detractors...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.2.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @1.2    one month ago

Exactly, when was the last time we killed anyone in the ME?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @1    one month ago

The rest of this thread was removed for meta [ph]

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2  Trout Giggles    one month ago

The second, IMO, was the Iraq fiasco

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @2    one month ago

Yes, it was Trout.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
2.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Trout Giggles @2    one month ago

Agreed.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3  Drinker of the Wry    one month ago

Tet was the beginning of the end of support for the Vietnam War and the public lost faith that LBJ was telling the truth about the war.  The 'guns and butter' spending caused mounting deficits while creating inflation. Stagflation, Watergate, Iran Hostages, Middle East terrorism, Savings Loan scandal Afghanistan and Iraq, Great Recession, COVID and Illegal migration and soaring debt followed and trust in our institutions have greatly eroded.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3    one month ago

Nixon followed LBJ and lied about the war, bombing, Laos and Cambodia then of course the break in and it was shit rolling downhill from there, Ford pardoned Nixon then the Iran Contra fiasco and the Marine suicide bombing in Beirut. 

And then the ''Mother of all Lies'' the invasion in which the lying reached new heights.

There is little left of any trust in many institutions and probably none in politicians.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @3.1    one month ago

Yes, our political elites have quite the record.  Yet many folks want to grow the government and give them even more power.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
3.2  fineline  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3    one month ago

"guns and butter spending" . The military/industrial state is always the winner in any conflict . Bureaucrats create the demand and they fill it . Capitalism at it's best (Greed) . The ensuing conflict will always be fortified with Religion . Those that fight and die will be involved because of Bigotry on some level .

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.2.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @3.2    one month ago
The military/industrial state is always the winner in any conflict .

In 1960, our military spending was 9% of GDP, in 2021 it was 3.48%

In 1960, our military spending ($47.35B) was 61% of total federal spending, last year it was 12% of our total spending.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.2  Krishna  replied to  fineline @3.2    one month ago
Capitalism at it's best (Greed) .

But what's the alternative?

Communism isn't any better. 

There certainly wasn't economic fairness -- under Stalinism the rich had large luxurious apartments in Moscow, and luxurious dachas (country homes.

And for all but a few elites the economic conditions were horrible (at the time the GNP of the entire Soviet Union was equal to that of Denmark!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.2.2    one month ago
Communism isn't any better. 

Well, I should've said "in most cases".

Having lived under democratic Communism, I know its possible-- but only in small isolated settings.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.4  Krishna  replied to  fineline @3.2    one month ago
The ensuing conflict will always be fortified with Religion

Stalinism wasn't pro-religion. (Remember that famous quote: "Religion is the opiate of the masses"?)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.2.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @3.2.4    one month ago
Stalinism wasn't pro-religion.

Nor Mao, Pol Pot, Uncle Ho, Kim Jong Un, etc.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
3.2.6  fineline  replied to  Krishna @3.2.2    one month ago

Capitalism IS the answer, but it must be regulated for fair trade and just compensation . We ARE all equal in this life and deserve a tranquil existence.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
4  evilone    one month ago

We might be working towards another... 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  evilone @4    one month ago

This one will be the worse shit show ever

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
4.1.1  evilone  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.1    one month ago
This one will be the worse shit show ever

It certainly has that potential. It has the potential to boil over into our own streets.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.2  devangelical  replied to  evilone @4.1.1    one month ago

a lucky break that america's enemies, the enemies of democracy, now belong to the same party.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.3  devangelical  replied to  devangelical @4.1.2    one month ago

republican and russian both begin with the letter R, [removed]

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.4  devangelical  replied to  devangelical @4.1.3    one month ago

... not hard to connect those 2 dots.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @4.1.3    one month ago

And Democrat and Dumbass both start with the letter "D".

point?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.6  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.5    one month ago

watching maga get caught flat-footed when lack of support for ukraine turns into russian collaboration...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  evilone @4    one month ago
We might be working towards another... 

That certainly is a possibility in the ME.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
4.2.1  evilone  replied to  Kavika @4.2    one month ago
That certainly is a possibility in the ME.

We'll see where calmer heads can prevail. There are so many political flash points right now it could happen anywhere at any time. The Doomsday Clock currently sits at 90 seconds to midnight.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  evilone @4.2.1    one month ago
There are so many political flash points right now it could happen anywhere at any time. 

Yes, there are and as each week passes another is added.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
5  Gsquared    one month ago

It's hard to believe the Vietnam War was so long ago.  It like seems almost just yesterday.  What a colossal mistake that was.  It really did great damage to the country, not to mention the Vietnamese and Cambodian people caught up in it.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Gsquared @5    one month ago

Sadly, you are correct, G. And yet today we are still losing vets from that war to suicide and agent orange. The never-ending nightmare.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
5.1.1  Gsquared  replied to  Kavika @5.1    one month ago
The never-ending nightmare.

That is an excellent description.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @5.1    one month ago

Perhaps the best study to date:

To our knowledge, this cohort study is the most comprehensive examination to date of the association between Vietnam War military service and suicide risk. The results showed no association between either Vietnam War–era military service or theater service and increased risk of suicide.”

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.3  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.2    one month ago

I'm sure that the people that did the study were at Hue, Hamberger Hill,  Khe Sanh, LZ X-Ray, the point being that if there had been no Vietnam war do you think that close to 100,000 Vietnam vets would have taken their lives? 

Form your link. Conclusions and Relevance  This cohort study found no association between Vietnam War–era military service and increased risk of suicide between 1979 and 2019. Nonetheless, the 94 497 suicides among all Vietnam War–era veterans during this period are noteworthy and merit the ongoing attention of health policymakers and mental health professionals.

The point of my suicide comment was that thousands die at their own hand, not if it is more or less of the general population.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @5.1.3    one month ago
I'm sure that the people that did the study were at Hue, Hamberger Hill,  Khe Sanh, LZ X-Ray, the point being that if there had been no Vietnam war do you think that close to 100,000 Vietnam vets would have taken their lives? 

I’m sure that they weren’t.  Does that invalidate their study.

The point of my suicide comment was that thousands die at their own hand, not if it is more or less of the general population.

That seems to be true regardless of service in Vietnam.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.5  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.4    one month ago
I’m sure that they weren’t.  Does that invalidate their study.

No, but it does throw a different light on it. 

That seems to be true regardless of service in Vietnam.

Yes it does which of course had nothing to do with my comment.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @5.1.5    one month ago

I’m sorry but you’ve lost me on this.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @5    one month ago
What a colossal mistake that was. 

Absolutely, yet the South Vietnamese that made it out seem forever grateful.

I doubt that the Afghans will feel the same way.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.1  fineline  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.2    one month ago

Vietnamese are Buddhist, Afghans are Muslim extremists. They don't like their own women, much less Western values . Hence the conflict of values between Iran and the U.S.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.2  fineline  replied to  fineline @5.2.1    one month ago

Chalk up another win for Religion !

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.2.1    one month ago

Many Vietnamese are Catholics, Afghanis that escaped to here are probably open to our values and how does Iran impact either?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.2.2    one month ago

What does this remark mean?

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.5  fineline  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.2.3    one month ago

Catholicism is a minority religion with the Vietnamese . The Afghans that escaped here know they can practice their faith openly, except in Red states. Uh, let's see, just for you, simply put, THE Ayatollah HATES WESTERN VALUES AND HATES WESTERN INTERVENTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST !

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.6  fineline  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.2.4    one month ago

OK, just for you, ANOTHER FINE MESS "RELIGIOUS VALUES" HAS GOTTEN US INTO !

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.2.5    one month ago
Catholicism is a minority religion with the Vietnamese.  

A large minority.

The Afghans that escaped here know they can practice their faith openly, except in Red states.

Link or your supposition?

Uh, let's see, just for you, simply put, THE Ayatollah HATES WESTERN VALUES AND HATES WESTERN INTERVENTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST !

No shit?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.8  Krishna  replied to  fineline @5.2.5    one month ago
THE Ayatollah HATES WESTERN VALUES

Obviously.

But what about the population?

And especially the "future population" (i.e. the younger Persians?)

Are you aware of the fact that most of them hate the Ayatollah-- and hate the extreme religiously based oppression?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.9  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.2.8    one month ago
THE Ayatollah HATES WESTERN VALUES
Obviously.

But what about the population?

And especially the "future population" (i.e. the younger Persians?)

Are you aware of the fact that most of them hate the Ayatollah-- and hate the extreme religiously based oppression?

Many westerners don't realize that the iranians, while a predominantly Muslim country-- they are not Arabs! (And IMO that's a major factor that gives me hope for their future).

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.10  fineline  replied to  Krishna @5.2.8    one month ago

And because they live in a theocracy, can't do a lot about it, yet! 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.2.11  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.2    one month ago

If we had not re-installed the French after WWII and we would have stayed out of Nam, I doubt if the thousands and thousands of Vietnamese would have come to the US.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.12  Krishna  replied to  fineline @5.2.10    one month ago
And because they live in a theocracy, can't do a lot about it, yet! 

They haven't succeeded...yet.

But a lot of them, particularly the younger ones, are protesting-- and risking their lives. 

Its a bit "unfashionable" in some progressive circles to criticize Iran-- because after all, it is a Muslim country. (So the struggles of those opposing the Islamist regime often don't get the coverage it deserves).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.13  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.2.12    one month ago
Its a bit "unfashionable" in some progressive circles to criticize Iran-- because after all, it is a Muslim country

More about that (on NT)-- here: 

Revolt Of The Year: The Iranian Women Uprising

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @5.2.11    one month ago

What US actions re-installed the French there after WWII?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.15  Krishna  replied to  fineline @5.2.10    one month ago
And because they live in a theocracy, can't do a lot about it, yet! 

Yet!

But not for lack of trying. This was quite an uprising, but ultimately unsuccessful (2009-20100):

The  Iranian Green Movement  ( Persian جنبش سبز ایران ) or  Green Wave of Iran  ( Persian موج سبز ایران ), [1]  also referred to as the  Persian Awakening  or  Persian Spring  by the western media, [2]  refers to a political movement that arose after the June 12,  2009 Iranian presidential election  and lasted until early 2010, [3]  in which protesters demanded the removal of  Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  from office. 

The  Green Movement protests  were a major event in  Iran 's modern political history and observers claimed that these protests were the largest since the  Iranian Revolution  of 1978–79. [6] [7] [8]  

While the protests started out as a peaceful, non-violent movement, hundreds of people were arrested and several died as protests turned more violent in the following months. The movement eventually had trouble with retaining its momentum.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.16  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.2.15    one month ago
While the protests started out as a peaceful, non-violent movement, hundreds of people were arrested and several died as protests turned more violent in the following months. The movement eventually had trouble with retaining its momentum.

I have high hopes that eventually they will succeed, get the current regime out of power and become a democracy.

Persians (Current day Iranians I've known refer to themselves as "Persians" as they are proud descents of those of the ancient Persian Empire) are quite different, culturally, than Arabs in several ways.. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.2.17  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.2.14    one month ago
What US actions re-installed the French there after WWII?

If I'm not mistaken you stated that you retired from the army after 20 years as an officer. If that is so and you don't know the answer to the question you posed to me, I'd say that you're playing some type of game or you were never in the army. I don't care either way and I'm always interested in a good debate but I don't waste my time with nonsense. 

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.18  fineline  replied to  Kavika @5.2.17    one month ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
5.2.19  fineline  replied to  Krishna @5.2.12    one month ago

That's a real shame, I applaud their efforts !

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.2.6    one month ago
ANOTHER FINE MESS "RELIGIOUS VALUES" HAS GOTTEN US INTO

Exactly, 

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin' for today
Ah
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace
 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
5.2.21  Thomas  replied to  fineline @5.2.5    one month ago
The Afghans that escaped here know they can practice their faith openly, except in Red states.

From my experience, I have found that if one practices religion in the so-called 'Red States' one is likely to be accepted more readily than one who does not practice religion. The refugees from Vietnam, Laos, and Thailand have apparently done very well there, at least from what I have seen.

 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.22  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @5.2.17    one month ago
If I'm not mistaken you stated that you retired from the army after 20 years as an officer. If that is so and you don't know the answer to the question you posed to me, I'd say that you're playing some type of game or you were never in the army. 

Yes, I was but I wasn't even born when the French first started to re-occupy parts of Vietnam in May 1946.  The only involvement by the US then was official neutrality.  

The US think started changing it's attitude four years later after the Sino-Soviet treaty and then the attack by N Korea.  In May 1950, after France had been back in Vietnam for four years, Truman authorized direct financial assistance to the French.

On June 30, 1950, the first U.S. supplies for Indochina were delivered and we sent a Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) to assist the French with planning and staff work.

I don't care either way and I'm always interested in a good debate but I don't waste my time with nonsense. 

Apparently you weren't interested in debating Vietnam.  I wasn't looking for a debate, but wanted to correct the record.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.23  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.2.5    one month ago
The Afghans that escaped here know they can practice their faith openly, except in Red states.

The link will show you a Muslim-American population map.  [ deleted ]

[ ]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.24  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  fineline @5.2.18    one month ago
I remember Wry Drinker from Newsvine, some shit never changes. I'm thinking never is the key word.

I'm think "shit" was your key word.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.2.26  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.2.22    one month ago
Yes, I was but I wasn't even born when the French first started to re-occupy parts of Vietnam in May 1946.  The only involvement by the US then was official neutrality.  

If you were born or not in that time period means little, you were not born during WWII but probably know quite a bit about it. 

The neutrality that the US took in position to Vietnam and France was one of not wanting to see Vietnam under Vietnamese rule and the French to return to power they did this by ignoring requests from Ho Chi Mihn to President Truman in 1946. 

There is the first letter from Ho Chin Minh to Truman. 

Letter from Ho Chi Minh to President Harry Truman, 1/18/1946

“I think it our duty to inform you on what is going on in our country and on what grave consequences for World Security the aggressive war inflicted upon us by the French may bring about.”

File Unit: 800 Indochina 1946, 1946 - 1948

Series: General Records, 1946 - 1948

Record Group 84: Records of the Foreign Service Posts of the Department of State, 1788 - ca. 1991

Transcription:

President HO CHI MINH,

Vietnam Democratic Republic, HANOI

[Handwritten] Requested Paris as

Tel. to Dept. 281 Feb. 13.

JM.

To President HARRY TRUMAN

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Washington D.C.

DEAR MR PRESIDENT,

On the occasion of the first assembly of the United Nations in London, I beg to congratulate you for the continuous and successful efforts your Government has been making to maintain Peace and Security all over the World.

As Peace is indivisible and as the Far East is being taken into especial consideration by your high Representative in China, General MARSHALL, I think it our duty to inform you on what is going on in our country and on what grave consequences for World Security the aggressive war inflicted upon us by the French may bring about.

As early as 1941, Vietnam has risen up against the Japanese fascists, and taken arms by the side of the Allies. After the Japanese surrendered to the Allies, a Provisional Government was set up to restore order and eradicate all fascist intentions in Vietnam. Supported by the whole nation, it carried out a democratic program, and succeeded in restoring order and discipline everywhere. Under very difficult circumstances, general elections for National Congress were organized and took

[page 2]

BO NGOAI - GIAO

VIET-NAM DAN-CHU CONG-HOA

DOC-LAP – TU-DO – HANH-PHUC

So

place on January 6th, 1946 throughout the land, including 9 000 000 electors of whom more than 90 o/o went to the polls.

The French colonialists, on the contrary, surrendered to the Japanese as early as September 1941. For four years they wholeheartedly cooperated with the Japanese to fight against the Allies and to repress the Vietnamese population. On March 9th, 1945, five months before the Japanese were defeated, the French by a second surrender, lost all right and control over Indochina.

On September 23rd, 1945, while the New Vietnam Democratic Republic was making strenuous efforts to carry out her reconstruction program, the French launched a night attack on the innocent population of Saigon, which was followed up by a systematically destructive and murderous warfare. Facts of looting, assassination of civilians, violence, indiscriminate bombing of non-strategical places by war planes, are reported everyday. Their intention is to invade the whole country and to reestablish their domination.

In the meanwhile, after the offer of interference voiced by Mr VINCENT CARTER, Chairman of the Far-East Department, our people enthusiastically welcomed President TRUMAN’s address on October 28 1945, in which he vigorously and concretely set forth the principles of self-determination and equality of status laid down in the Atlantic and San Francisco Charters.

Since that time, the French have tremendously increased their fighting forces. Millions of people will suffer, thousands will be killed and invaluable properties will be destroyed, unless the United States

[page 3]

BO NGOAI-GIAO

VIET-NAM DAN-CHU CONG-HOA

DOC-LAP – TU-DO – HANH-PHUC

So

would step out to stop that bloodshed and unlawful aggression.

For this reason, on behalf of my people and Government, I respectfully request you to interfere for an immediate solution of the Vietnamese issue. The people of Vietnam earnestly hopes that the great American Republic would help us to conquer full independence and support us in our reconstruction work.

Thus, with the assistance of China and the United States, both in capital and technique, our Vietnam Republic will be able to bring her share in the building-up of World Peace and World Prosperity.

With respect,

I am, dear Mr President,

Yours truly,

[signed] HochiMinh

This is the second letter:

Letter from Ho Chi Minh to President Harry Truman Asking for Intervention, February 28, 1946

image-grey.svg     Download Image Resource

Image
history-education-pss-vietnam-hochiminh-source_0.jpg?itok=n26GdbyF
Courtesy of National Archives, Ho Chi Minh, "Letter from Ho Chi Minh to President Harry S. Truman," 28 February 1946

Description

Following the end of World War II, Ho Chi Minh reached out to President Harry S. Truman for support in ending French rule in Vietnam. In the document, Ho Chi Minh references both the Atlantic and San Francisco charters as a basis for his claims. The Atlantic Charter was drawn up in 1941 following the outbreak of World War II by the U.S. and England and the San Francisco Charter references the document that creates the United Nations (UN Charter). In both documents, the United States lends their support for support self-government by occupied peoples during World War II. 

Transcript of Ho Chi Minh's Letter to U.S. President Harry Truman

Letter from Ho Chi Minh to President Harry Truman Asking
for Intervention, February 28, 1946
Hanoi February 28 1946
TELEGRAM
President Ho Chi Minh Vietnam Democratic Republic Hanoi
To the President of the United States of America Washington D.C.
On behalf of Vietnam government and people I beg to inform you that in course of conversations
between Vietnam government and French representatives the latter require the secession of
Cochinchina and the return of French troops in Hanoi stop meanwhile French population and troops
are making active preparations for a coup de main in Hanoi and for military aggression stop I therefore
most earnestly appeal to you personally and to the American people to interfere urgently in support of
our independence and help making the negotiations more in keeping with the principles of the Atlantic
and San Francisco charters
Respectfully
Ho Chi Minh
(signed) 

Even though the US signed both documents, they expressly did not respond to Ho Chi Minh requests, which I would say is helping France re-occupy Vietnam which is what Truman and the US wanted. 

As you stated in 1950 the US began supplying France with billions of dollars since the French were losing the war. 

The United States first began asserting itself in Vietnam's affairs during the French-Indochina war. The United States gave France  $2.6 billion  over the next decade to help the country re-establish rule in Vietnam. In fact, the U.S. allocated more funds for the French-Indochina War than did the French.

Apparently you weren't interested in debating Vietnam.  I wasn't looking for a debate, but wanted to correct the record.  

Since you only wanted to correct the record, you must have known the answer to your question before you asked me since you supplied it. You simply could have posted the information instead of the nonsense you tried. 

As I said in my prior comment to you I'm always up for a good debate but not nonsense.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.2.27  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @5.2.26    one month ago
Even though the US signed both documents, they expressly did not respond to Ho Chi Minh requests, which I would say is helping France re-occupy Vietnam which is what Truman and the US wanted. 

We disagree on what constitutes helping.

Since you only wanted to correct the record, you must have known the answer to your question before you asked me since you supplied it. You simply could have posted the information instead of the nonsense you tried. 

No, you have a earned reputation for knowledgeable posts here.  I thought maybe I had missed some recent declassified information that we had secretly helped France back in in 1946.  Sorry you felt it to be nonsense.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6  Nerm_L    one month ago

Vietnam and Iraq?  Harlan Ullman is old enough to know better.  That old, tired neoliberal trope requires ignoring a huge amount of history.  Didn't all of this begin with Korea, the war that never ended?  Let's ignore the Cuban missile crisis when the country learned the government couldn't do anything to protect the people.  Let's ignore the 1968 Democrat convention when a political party simply declared voters don't matter.  Let's ignore the Iran hostage fiasco and the failed rescue attempt by the military.  Even the killing of Bin Laden involved the loss of advanced tech costing hundreds of millions.  The military can spend more in 5 minutes than many people could earn in a lifetime of work and still botches up everything.  

 If Vietnam and Iraq are responsible for the divisions in the country then why is Joe Biden sitting in the Oval Office?  Joe Biden was a Senator when Saigon fell.  And 46 years later Kabul fell just like Saigon and Biden was there, too. The country seems to be aware, even if only vaguely, that today's United States couldn't win World War II.  Our political leaders were there when the country started to fall apart and they're still running things the same way.  Our political leaders were wrong way back then and they're still playing CYA by blaming the public.  Even this seeded article is blaming the public in a backhanded manner.  Maybe its time to recognize that people like Harlan Ullman have been the problem all along.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
6.1  fineline  replied to  Nerm_L @6    one month ago

And you propose MAGA and Trump are the solution ? I detect the symptoms of a failed leader in you and the obvious envy of knowledge and experience . You and yours keep whistling that tune for chaos and we'll all be in the streets . Be certain to wear your Red Hat, it's visible from a loooong way away .

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  fineline @6.1    one month ago

So true fineline, excellent!  Awesome, absolutely awesome.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.2  Tessylo  replied to  Nerm_L @6    one month ago

[Deleted] former 'president' and maga have been the problem all along.

 
 

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